RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942?

RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (Full Version)

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Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/27/2015 3:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab A very interesting discussion, though it veered somewhat off-topic. It did. Sorry about that...[&:] quote: ORIGINAL: YaabIt seems to me that the greatest asset of the Dutch in the Pacific is the Dutch merchant navy and subs. You get very little in terms of Dutch devices, aircraft, pilots and supply, so there is no point in saving them from Java - let Java be their last stand. But the navy is definitely worth preserving. One more thing, the Dutch mines are produced until 12/1942. Where would they be produced historically - UK or USA? I'm not exactly sure how this plays out in the game - still in the process of studying it - but in RL the KNIL, the Dutch Navy's Air Force, was an excellent organisation with an extended basing and communication system. The Dornier Do24K was probably the best recce plane in the area and they had a lot of them. PBY's, too. Fred

Symon -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (3/27/2015 3:49:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab A very interesting discussion, though it veered somewhat off-topic. It seems to me that the greatest asset of the Dutch in the Pacific is the Dutch merchant navy and subs. You get very little in terms of Dutch devices, aircraft, pilots and supply, so there is no point in saving them from Java - let Java be their last stand. But the navy is definitely worth preserving. And that, indeed, it was. The KNI Zeemacht was there till the end. quote: One more thing, the Dutch mines are produced until 12/1942. Where would they be produced historically - UK or USA? UK, Vickers Mk X . ., contact with switch/Hertz horns. DEI Dutch didn't get jack from Euro sources. US mines don't fit in containers configured for Vickers models. What ya see is what ya get.

navysim -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 7:56:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros quote: LOL...Well...until I can find a CREDIBLE source declaring otherwise...I might picture just that...a beer in one hand...swagger stick in the other, (for pointing)... Ya' gotta know...THIS forum in particular has hundreds of credible historian types so we might all expect our "notes" to be checked and double checked.. Some of us have even been around to create some military history of our own.. Welcome to this fantastic group of friends..we look forward to your continued contributions.....[;)] Thank you, appreciate it. That said, apart from the fact that I have never seen any proof (but many opinions) on what happened in MacArthur's HQ that morning, other than generals Sutherland and Brereton's disagreement on what happened, I would be interested in your opinion on what difference it made for the proceedings on Luzon whether the Luzon-based B-17's were dispatched to bomb Formosa or not (apart from them being in the air and not on the ground - which they were, anyway). And exactly what MacArthur did wrong regarding the utilization of his Air Force as a whole, apart from parking his B-17's wingtip to wingtip? Which I should think was more like General Breretons' responsibility. There must be something more than he considering just sending them out in the blue wasn't very wise? Fred I don't think striking out at Formosa as a shot-in-the-dark or sending them out into the blue. Had he done so and caught the Japs on the ground he could have very well caused many losses to the valuable planes. Those very planes, so crucial to the first weeks of the war, could not be replaced overnight by the Japs. His planes would have at least drawn some blood before their fate befell them. Sounds like Mac was in denial upon hearing the news of the attack on Pearl and was changing his underwear as many other Officers in Manila were doing. Some even went to play a game of golf after hearing of the attack at Pearl. It seems to me that Mac was displaying the same behavior that Hitler had in the weeks before the fall of Berlin, shock and indecisiveness. You stated “I would be interested in your opinion on what difference it made for the proceedings on Luzon whether the Luzon-based B-17's were dispatched to bomb Formosa or not (apart from them being in the air and not on the ground - which they were, anyway). And exactly what MacArthur did wrong regarding the utilization of his Air Force as a whole, apart from parking his B-17's wingtip to wingtip?” What exactly did MacArthur do wrong with his Air Force apart from parking them? Exactly nothing, he did nothing at all with a weapon he had at his disposal to strike back at the Japs before they could launch their invasion. In reality he would just have stalled it for a short time. Yet MacArthur made sure he got off the island and to Australia to have a beer and change his shorts. MacArthur found it fitting to criticize Gen. Wainwright for his decision to surrender after putting up a futile defense with no hope of a relief expedition insight. Gen. Wainwright’s surrender was to ensure that his men’s lives were not lost in a vain attempt. The only lives that MacArthur can be credited with saving during his Philippine "debacle" would be the very lives of the PT boat crews that whisked him to safety. To me it seems that some here share a common trait that afflicted MacArthur, that of arrogance. It seems that this same arrogance brought about Mac’s early retirement. “Following the relocation of MacArthur to Australia in March, Wainwright inherited the unenviable position of Allied commander in the Philippines. On April 9, the 70,000 troops on Bataan surrendered. On May 5, the Japanese attacked Corregidor and on May 6, in the interest of minimizing casualties, Wainwright surrendered. By June 9, Allied forces had completely surrendered. Wainwright was then held in prison camps until his liberation by the Red Army in August 1945. He was the highest-ranking American POW, and despite his rank, his treatment at the hands of the Japanese was not pleasant. When he met General MacArthur in August 1945 shortly after his liberation, he had become thin and malnourished from three years of mistreatment during captivity. After witnessing the Japanese surrender aboard the USS Missouri on September 2, together with Lieutenant-General Arthur Percival, he returned to the Philippines to receive the surrender of the local Japanese commander. Dubbed by his men a "fighting" general who was willing to get down in the foxholes, Wainwright won the respect of all who were imprisoned with him. He agonized over his decision to surrender Corregidor throughout his captivity, feeling that he had let his country down. Upon release, the first question he asked was how people back in the U.S. thought of him, and he was amazed when told he was considered a hero. He later received the Medal of Honor, an honor which had first been proposed early in his captivity, in 1942, but was rejected due to the vehement opposition of General MacArthur, who felt that Corregidor should not have been surrendered. MacArthur did not oppose the renewed proposal in 1945. General Jonathan M. Wainwright’s Medal of Honor reads: Citation: Distinguished himself by intrepid and determined leadership against greatly superior enemy forces. At the repeated risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in his position, he frequented the firing line of his troops where his presence provided the example and incentive that helped make the gallant efforts of these men possible. The final stand on beleaguered Corregidor, for which he was in an important measure personally responsible, commanded the admiration of the Nation's allies. It reflected the high morale of American arms in the face of overwhelming odds. His courage and resolution were a vitally needed inspiration to the then sorely pressed freedom-loving peoples of the world. I am new to posting on this forum but have been here, on and off, for a couple of years reading all your posts. I learn something new from everyone whether I agree or not. The “tech help” is priceless to me and to all of those that have kept with this game and made it all the better through you efforts and mods, THANK YOU.

Amoral -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 9:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leandros Nevertheless, that Luzon army, without operational ability, organization, defensive infrastructure, training, equipment and stockpiles ...[;)] Your argument seems to be very damning of MacArthur. Did he know his army was unprepared and unable when he ordered a new defense plan for the Philippines; or did he not know the state of his own forces? In either case, is he not guilty of a failure of command?

Numdydar -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 11:13:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter Time for me to come clean on where I stand. It isn't so much that I am looking for the Allied side to have the kind of flexibility the Japanese side has, which by the way would only be fair. It's that I really, really want the Japanese side to have to suffer with the kind of historical handicaps the Allied side is forced to operate under. I'll go ahead and duck under the table now to avoid the storm of put down I know is coming from the JFBs. I have to ask Hans if you have actually played a game as the Allies into late '44 or '45? Also have you ever played Japan to the same point? From your comments it seems likely you have not. If I am wrong I must apologize. The reason I ask is because if you had, I would not think you would make these comments. Since the reality is that Japan loses. Period. You are correct in that the Allies have things fixed. Just like Germany does in WitE. The Allies have to be fixed simply because there are way to many outside variables that would influence these things. You think India would have been better reinforced if invaded or Oz. But from where? Europe? North Africa? Do you want Rommel in Cairo? To come close to modeling what you want, you need a real global game. Not just a single theater. Although a massively large one [:)] Also against the AI it is possible to do things as the Allies that in a PBEM would not work too well. I also would love a major Allied commitment to the DEI in early '42. As they would all eventually die. I can park assets all around the area and I would have major shipyards within an easy distance. Where would yours be? Perth? Colombo? Not what I would call close. Japan also has a lot of excess AC that simply cannot be used at the front lines for a variety of reason. But there is plenty of room in the DEI to bomb things that have no cap and little AA. A great way to increase my pilot skills. I would keep the Dutch around just for this alone lol. I have played two complete games to the end as Japan, one against the AI and one PBEM and in neither game did any Allied troops survive in the DEI. Japan has plenty of time to wipe out any defenders if they stay within the historical expansion area. So I have to disagree that there will be plenty of game where the Dutch will survive. Unless it is against the AI of course. Since it is so easy to 'break' the game when playing the AI. Which of course creates very bad habits that quickly run into trouble when playing a human. I had a number of those moments myself lol.

navysim -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 11:26:47 PM)
NOTE My criticism of MacArthur has more to do with his arrogance than his military command capabilities. Did he know that his army was unprepared and unable to defend the Philippines? I don’t think so. I have to believe that both the Japanese and the Americans under estimated each other. If I recall, the Japanese thought the Americans lacked the stomach and will for a prolonged fight. Hence the Japanese would conquer as much as they could before the end of 1942 and bring the Americans to the peace table. The Americans thought poorly of the Japanese soldier, thinking ourselves superior to the Asian race. One example that comes to mind was American pilots being told during training that the Japanese pilots suffered from poor eye sight due to their facial features (squinted eyes). Anyways, the defense of the Philippines had to last long enough for the Fleet and re-enforcements to arrive from the West Coast. That was dependent upon the Battle Fleet being intact, which was not the case. Nor do I think that he is to blame for the fall of the Philippines. I don’t think the Philippines could have held out till 1944 to be retaken. It’s one of those things in life that has to be accepted. Like I said, my disdain for MacArthur has everything to do with his arrogance. It seems like he placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of Gen. Wainwright for not fighting to the death in the defense of the islands. As if MacArthur himself felt that others would blame him for the surrender of the forces in the Philippines. Gen. MacArthur was a great leader but he was not what I would call “exceptional”. General Wainwright was just that, “exceptional”, in that he made the decision to surrender a lost and hopeless cause to save a couple hundred thousand lives of American and Filipino soldiers and civilians at the expense of dishonoring his own name (or so he thought). Now that is a man I would fight for. I don’t think Gen. MacArthur’s arrogance would have allowed him to make that decision which he would have taken as a sign of personal failure. As stated in the prior post, Gen. Wainwright agonized over his decision to surrender Corregidor throughout his captivity, feeling that he had let his country down. A little bit of Wainwright died each day of his captivity with guilt that he unjustly punished himself with. Funny thing, MacArthur refused the Medal of Honor for Gen. Wainwright in 1942 but was it out of his personal anger, perhaps and I’m sure MacArthur would have had all those men die to defend his honor and place in history. At the end of the war, Gen. Wainwright was rightfully and justly awarded the Medal of Honor. MacArthur did not voice an objection. Perhaps MacArthur was approached by President Truman and others and talked to. Then again, MacArthur’s anger and outlook was not the same as in those dark days of December 1941.

navysim -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 11:42:57 PM)
I just wish that I had more control of the assignment of HQ’s and units of my beloved Dutch. I would like to be able to have them retreat as far as needed for the situation to stabilize itself. Then come back to the D.E.I. and create their bases again. Perhaps I’m just being picky here. As I am not too knowledgeable in the area of editing I don’t know if that would be possible or how to go about it. Thats where I again would like to thank all of you for the “tech” help that you provide other players and all of the work spent on those awesome mods!

Numdydar -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/9/2015 11:57:53 PM)
You need to play a different game then [:)]. Even after the war the Dutch did not have the forces/equipment to keep the DEI against armed natives. So to take back what they lost against the armed opposition of Japan is beyond this reality [:(]

navysim -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/10/2015 12:09:14 AM)
[sm=sad-1361.gif] I know, it is so sad. oh well.

wdolson -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (7/10/2015 2:40:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: navysim NOTE My criticism of MacArthur has more to do with his arrogance than his military command capabilities. Did he know that his army was unprepared and unable to defend the Philippines? I don’t think so. I have to believe that both the Japanese and the Americans under estimated each other. If I recall, the Japanese thought the Americans lacked the stomach and will for a prolonged fight. Hence the Japanese would conquer as much as they could before the end of 1942 and bring the Americans to the peace table. The Americans thought poorly of the Japanese soldier, thinking ourselves superior to the Asian race. One example that comes to mind was American pilots being told during training that the Japanese pilots suffered from poor eye sight due to their facial features (squinted eyes). Anyways, the defense of the Philippines had to last long enough for the Fleet and re-enforcements to arrive from the West Coast. That was dependent upon the Battle Fleet being intact, which was not the case. Nor do I think that he is to blame for the fall of the Philippines. I don’t think the Philippines could have held out till 1944 to be retaken. It’s one of those things in life that has to be accepted. Like I said, my disdain for MacArthur has everything to do with his arrogance. It seems like he placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of Gen. Wainwright for not fighting to the death in the defense of the islands. As if MacArthur himself felt that others would blame him for the surrender of the forces in the Philippines. Gen. MacArthur was a great leader but he was not what I would call “exceptional”. General Wainwright was just that, “exceptional”, in that he made the decision to surrender a lost and hopeless cause to save a couple hundred thousand lives of American and Filipino soldiers and civilians at the expense of dishonoring his own name (or so he thought). Now that is a man I would fight for. I don’t think Gen. MacArthur’s arrogance would have allowed him to make that decision which he would have taken as a sign of personal failure. As stated in the prior post, Gen. Wainwright agonized over his decision to surrender Corregidor throughout his captivity, feeling that he had let his country down. A little bit of Wainwright died each day of his captivity with guilt that he unjustly punished himself with. Funny thing, MacArthur refused the Medal of Honor for Gen. Wainwright in 1942 but was it out of his personal anger, perhaps and I’m sure MacArthur would have had all those men die to defend his honor and place in history. At the end of the war, Gen. Wainwright was rightfully and justly awarded the Medal of Honor. MacArthur did not voice an objection. Perhaps MacArthur was approached by President Truman and others and talked to. Then again, MacArthur’s anger and outlook was not the same as in those dark days of December 1941. I think MacArthur was fully aware his forces were ill prepared. He had a defense plan for the Philippines that may have worked, or at minimum given the Japanese a serious black eye, but he didn't have the time or resources to put it together before the war started. He had requested the troops, weapons, and supplies, but very little had been sent when the war started. He was definitely arrogant though. Bill

Yaab -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 9:22:29 AM)
One more thing: since there was no outside resupply of Java and the Dutch had really basic HI industry on Java, then it means they had a limited, prewar stock of torpedoes on Java for their submarines. Is there any estimate of how many torpedoes there were on Java?

Dutch_slith -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 9:29:26 AM)
No. But all that was left, was put onto the Zuiderkruis, when RNN was forced to evacuate Java.

Yaab -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 9:36:03 AM)
Thanks. In the game, you can actually shoot lots of torpedoes as the Dutch.

Leandros -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 11:10:23 AM)
. quote: ORIGINAL: navysim I just wish that I had more control of the assignment of HQ’s and units of my beloved Dutch. I would like to be able to have them retreat as far as needed for the situation to stabilize itself. Then come back to the D.E.I. and create their bases again. Perhaps I’m just being picky here. As I am not too knowledgeable in the area of editing I don’t know if that would be possible or how to go about it. Thats where I again would like to thank all of you for the “tech” help that you provide other players and all of the work spent on those awesome mods! It is possible. I'm in the scenario below now - May12th 1942. When things began to go awry I started to withdraw Dutch units from Sumatra and Java into Denpasar, Bali. Look at the map and Denpasar spec. sheet. Denpasar was also reinforced with Aussie troops returning from Middle East and some US troops. I intend to hold Bali and the island chain back to Timor. It should be said that much of the Philippines, Menado and Ambon are still in my hands. My main strategy now is to make safe havens (air-wise) for my small nightly destroyer raiding parties close to the Japanese bases. Only the last week 20-30 enemy transports have been sunk in such operations. The recipe can be found in the book series I'm working at.....[;)].... Fred [image]local://upfiles/51239/032362289BB44CE29142DCF8252139BC.jpg[/image] [URL=http://s119.photobucket.com/user/Leandros10/media/Denpasar12May1942_zpsk6o7eool.jpg.html][IMG]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/Leandros10/Denpasar12May1942_zpsk6o7eool.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

BBfanboy -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 4:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wdolson quote: ORIGINAL: navysim NOTE My criticism of MacArthur has more to do with his arrogance than his military command capabilities. Did he know that his army was unprepared and unable to defend the Philippines? I don’t think so. I have to believe that both the Japanese and the Americans under estimated each other. If I recall, the Japanese thought the Americans lacked the stomach and will for a prolonged fight. Hence the Japanese would conquer as much as they could before the end of 1942 and bring the Americans to the peace table. The Americans thought poorly of the Japanese soldier, thinking ourselves superior to the Asian race. One example that comes to mind was American pilots being told during training that the Japanese pilots suffered from poor eye sight due to their facial features (squinted eyes). Anyways, the defense of the Philippines had to last long enough for the Fleet and re-enforcements to arrive from the West Coast. That was dependent upon the Battle Fleet being intact, which was not the case. Nor do I think that he is to blame for the fall of the Philippines. I don’t think the Philippines could have held out till 1944 to be retaken. It’s one of those things in life that has to be accepted. Like I said, my disdain for MacArthur has everything to do with his arrogance. It seems like he placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of Gen. Wainwright for not fighting to the death in the defense of the islands. As if MacArthur himself felt that others would blame him for the surrender of the forces in the Philippines. Gen. MacArthur was a great leader but he was not what I would call “exceptional”. General Wainwright was just that, “exceptional”, in that he made the decision to surrender a lost and hopeless cause to save a couple hundred thousand lives of American and Filipino soldiers and civilians at the expense of dishonoring his own name (or so he thought). Now that is a man I would fight for. I don’t think Gen. MacArthur’s arrogance would have allowed him to make that decision which he would have taken as a sign of personal failure. As stated in the prior post, Gen. Wainwright agonized over his decision to surrender Corregidor throughout his captivity, feeling that he had let his country down. A little bit of Wainwright died each day of his captivity with guilt that he unjustly punished himself with. Funny thing, MacArthur refused the Medal of Honor for Gen. Wainwright in 1942 but was it out of his personal anger, perhaps and I’m sure MacArthur would have had all those men die to defend his honor and place in history. At the end of the war, Gen. Wainwright was rightfully and justly awarded the Medal of Honor. MacArthur did not voice an objection. Perhaps MacArthur was approached by President Truman and others and talked to. Then again, MacArthur’s anger and outlook was not the same as in those dark days of December 1941. I think MacArthur was fully aware his forces were ill prepared. He had a defense plan for the Philippines that may have worked, or at minimum given the Japanese a serious black eye, but he didn't have the time or resources to put it together before the war started. He had requested the troops, weapons, and supplies, but very little had been sent when the war started. He was definitely arrogant though. Bill Agree on MacArthur's personality, but he was no coward - he went outside during bombing raids and his staff had fits about his needless exposure to the danger. Mac only departed the Philippines on direct order from the President, because it would be a big propaganda coup for the Japanese to have MacArthur captured. And maybe the President also had an inkling that Mac would keep the troops fighting to the death in some kind of Gotterdammerung! (sp?) Gen. Wainwright punished himself for "making the wrong decision" (or so he thought) when it turned out that surrendering to the Japanese did not mean the end of suffering and death as everyone thought it would. The Bataan Death March was the first real exposure of Allied forces to the cruelty of Japanese POW practices. There may have been hints beforehand in China but the Western powers falsely imagined that the Japanese would never dare to treat white men the same way.

BBfanboy -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 5:01:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab Thanks. In the game, you can actually shoot lots of torpedoes as the Dutch. I have no problem with this in a game with abstracted supply. The Allies would not have let Dutch subs sit idle for lack of torps and would no doubt have rebuilt their tubes to take British or US torpedoes. We are talking the nations that rebuilt BB Richelieu (which was short one 15" French model gun) into a fully operational BB with great AA, even though it took a lot of shipyard time. Sub mods would be small potatoes.

Jaroen -> RE: Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942? (2/24/2016 7:52:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wdolson The Indonesians did drive out the Dutch. I didn't say there was any realistic scenario where the Indonesians didn't fight for their independence as soon as the war was over. I was trying to make the point that the idea of Indonesian independence was once sided until the Dutch realized that they couldn't hold on with military might. They initially tried to squash the rebellion like they had many times before. Philippine independence was a two sided idea with no open conflict. The US went along with the idea of an independent Philippines. The US was actually pushing it to some degree. In the 1930s the US was freeing many of its possessions (at least the more recently acquired ones) in an attempt to get the Japanese out of China without looking like hypocrites. Anti-colonialism was sweeping the world around that time. Pretty much all the European colonial masters were having troubles in at least some of their colonies if not all. Bill I think anti-colonialism was sweeping the world for a long time before WW2 already but most of the European colonies after the war gained independence during the 60s and 70s. Regarding the Indonesian struggle, it all is a bit more nuanced. As always! Easiest way, here's the wikipedia page on the matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution But like all fights for independence, there's nothing simple and straightforward about it. And it makes for a long read. What is not told is the way the Dutch viewed the Indian struggle for independence very close. Basically the Dutch tried to follow the British policy. There already was discussion before the war on paving the road for Indonesian independence. Of course, all under Dutch control and with the Dutch setting the rules. And understandably, the Indonesians didn't like it all. During the outbreak of hostilities after the Japanese defeat it was also tried to solve matters in a political way. Continuously! Many times. But the Dutch were ever running behind on actual matters and never found equal ground with the freedom fighters. And on another note, eventually the Dutch would have let Indonesia go! Unlike another of your statements. As a precedent there's the case of Suriname (1975 - peacefully!) and some of the Dutch Antilles Islands. Of course there was no way this would have occured to anyone after the war regarding Indonesia when some eager Indonesian youths murdered thousands of helpless women and children in the unguarded, formerly Japanese, prison camps. Not so much Dutch colonials as much as Indonesian 'collaborators'. Check the Bersiap period! So any talk on possible Dutch policy regarding possible release of Indonesia is just that, talk. Acts and facts didn't work out that way and it's plain disingenuous to state something like the Dutch would never let go of Indonesia. Eventually it was international pressure that ushered the Dutch government into a political solution instead of continuing the bloodletting. Which is different from your assumption Bill. The Indonesians dit NOT drive the Dutch out. The Dutch could, technically speaking, continue that war and stay. Not morally acceptable really. In some way this can of course be interpreted as 'driving the Dutch out' but it's worth understanding this wasn't really a military decision. Interesting point perhaps, the Dutch still haven't come clean about this Indonesian fight for independance and the Dutch ugly deeds. Which I find sad. It was a very bad period which should be closed and put behind us. It still plays a negative role in Dutch/Indonesian policy and journalism. Not good at all and still many skeletons in closets. On all sides by the way! Anyways, a long piece of text. I hope someone finds it of interest.

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