OT: 5 million black berets (Full Version)

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jwarrenw13 -> OT: 5 million black berets (4/5/2001 9:14:00 AM)

Most of you are aware of the Army's controversial decision to replace the old baseball-style cap for most soldiers with black berets. As a retired Army officer, I have strenuously objected to this decision, but that has already been discussed here. You may not know that the black berets, 5 million of them, are being made by a company located in the People's Republic of China. Now I think it would be absolutely insulting for US soldiers to be forced to wear berets made in the country that is currently holding American airmen hostage. Write your congressman.



BlitzSS -> (4/5/2001 9:35:00 AM)

JW thanks for the info, The only thing I've heard of worse then that was during WW2. Our sailors were instructed to tie knots in the straps of there life vests before abandoning ship. It turned out that many of these vest were made in Japan and would water log, taking many men to their bane.



jwarrenw13 -> (4/5/2001 9:45:00 AM)

Actually I think I overstated the number that will be made in the PRC, which is just handling some of the contract. Just wanted to clarify that as I cool off. The connection just dawned on me a few minutes ago, and I'm still hot about it. Here is a link to a story about who is making the berets. http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/feb01/ed020701e.html



murx -> (4/5/2001 11:24:00 AM)

I think it would be better if the barrets were made in US ... better for morale anyway. But additionally I would advise to use different coloured barrets, maybe even some units still sticking to the old caps. Either colour based on unit type or Division/Corps etc. To have unique headgear or a unit will improve both the units cohesion and will stimulate competition between units so they even try to do even better. And additionally if headgear is selected for weapon type commanders easily distinguish personel. In Germany we have Red barrets for Artillery/Logistic, Green for PanzerGrenadier, Black for tanks, Blue for medical personel (if I remember right...) and so on. So if one has a combined force as a commander one can easily find the CO of a attached unit and knows what kind of unit that one commands. murx



Randy -> (4/5/2001 11:35:00 AM)

:mad:As far as I'm concerned, one beret made in the prc is too many!!! Semper Fi Randy



B52g -> (4/5/2001 3:06:00 PM)

When I was in the Air Force, we changed uniform styles three times, and that did not include all of the hat changes. Some of hats were made in China. I see some things havent changed a bit in the military. I have edited this post now that I have run to the closet and dug up my old hats. Yes, I had two hats made in China.



AmmoSgt -> (4/5/2001 7:05:00 PM)

I know i have been flamed on this forum for bring up the fact that during WW2 alot of German equipment was made by slave labor ...Slave Labor will be making the Berets .. I'm sure that will improve US morale and espre' de corps knowing that the troops are wearing berets made by Slave labor... but then the GI's started putting on Nazi style helmets back in the 80's so maybe Berets made by slaves won't be so bad ..



Charles2222 -> (4/5/2001 8:19:00 PM)

AmmoSgt: The helmet most (I say 'most' because airborne had different ones) of the Germans wore during WWII, was not a "NAZI" helmet as you claim. The helmet had been around since WWI and possibly before that. The only thing "NAZI" about the German helmet of WWII was that it had swastikas on them, while that very same helmet design of WWI did not. I take it that the US Army new style did not include swastikas, yes? Also, while the US Army helmet adopted resembles the German helmet, it isn't the same by any means.



JTGEN -> (4/5/2001 8:37:00 PM)

I think itis good to change to barets as the caps look ridiculous. Your soldiers look like farmers in Church outfits with them and they really do not look wery "military". But using the same color is stupid. It is a great way to know from where you are with the different colors. Black baret is more of a tanker baret (germans used to make the new armoured units some nice tradition and identity)



gdpsnake -> (4/5/2001 8:47:00 PM)

It's not the helmet but the person wearing it. Items are not inherently evil, only people. We have our politicians to thank when it comes to the two-faced attitude in our foreign policies. 'Money' forces the opening of markets and 'profit' runs the minds of politicos. In the case of China, we dug our own hole in the Clinton years by looking the other way at every human rights abuse, illegal sale of computers and tech, and by ignoring the overall political views of others. Clinton gave lip service to the arms embargo in the Balkans and then turned right around and sold arms to the muslims behind the back of our Allies. I would like everyone to just 'get along'. People are the same everywhere. But until people force the politicians of their countries to adequately represent them and not the special intrests of people looking to make a buck, then these situations will continue. I agree. Write your representatives. Stop the two-faced approach of political agendas. I know it's easy to say in a free culture, others are fed only what the govt will allow. We all need to get the word out. Great game by the way. Maybe unite the world through games?!? :eek:



Matt -> (4/5/2001 11:56:00 PM)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I couldn't resist this topic and I've got a little time today, so my two cents follow. I know a lot of you retiree (US anyway) may disagree, but hey it is a forum, right? On the US Army going to the Black beret. Who really cares? It's just a hat. As an active duty officer, I would be happy to wear a pink tutu and a tiara if they would let me lead combat soldiers as long as I wanted. (I would prefer not to, a tutu just doesn't look very warm.) They probably could have picked a color not already taken, though it should be noted that the Rangers stole the black beret from the cavalry and so on at least all the way back the Iron Brigade of the Union Army of the civil. I am sure lineage could be traced farther back than that. The Ridgeway hat was fine, the beret will be too. As far as buying them from the Chinese, it's probably not the message the US wants to send the Chinese on a political level given recent events. Judge for yourselves. Anyone else who has worn, drank from, puked in, spit in, dipped, or otherwised loved a cavalry Stetson may understand my dismay when a female chemical officer told me how she "earned" her cavalry spurs and Stetson. But hey, what it really is, is flattery, at least that's how I rationalize. What does this mean to SPWAW. Distinctive uniform items often go with elite units. Each person in a simulation must weight the benefits and drawbacks of using those type of forces and understand their strengths and weaknesses. So does his opponent. You want your Guards, Rangers, FJ, Commandos, etc., bring em. They all have exploitable weaknesses. Regards, Matt



Grumble -> (4/6/2001 12:16:00 AM)

Matt, Good words, you're right it's a hat-a damn impractical one-hot in summer, not very warm in winter; although the Rangers were officially authorized the black beret since 1975. That's over 25 years of tradition being flushed away. My perspective is from the cash viewpoint: the CoS's whine and blow snot about not enough money ("we're gutting ourselves") yet we can afford: new hats for the army and $650,000 for a new AF symbol. (Don't even get me started on boondoggles like "Tops in Blue")



edppcli -> (4/6/2001 2:39:00 AM)

Hey you boys can choose whatever colour you want, just don't let those greasy LEGs wear marroon.



edppcli -> (4/6/2001 2:40:00 AM)

Hey you boys can choose whatever colour you want, just don't let those greasy LEGs wear marroon.



KG Erwin -> (4/6/2001 4:16:00 AM)

As a civilian interested in military matters, I questioned the Army's decision to adopt the black beret, but after talking to a good buddy and former combat Marine, I'm starting to understand the rationale. The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits. To imply a service-wide elitism, if you will. My friend's son, who is in the Army, has stated that the recruiting officers for the other services always looked so much better than the Army's. I'm sure that's a widely-held opinion. In this day and age, I can understand their predicament. It's really simple if you compare the ability for the Army to recruit the best and brightest as opposed to the other branches of the US military establishment. To some of the traditionalists, it may seem a slap in the face, BUT, in today's business-oriented environment, it's just common sense.



USMCGrunt -> (4/6/2001 5:11:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: As a civilian interested in military matters, I questioned the Army's decision to adopt the black beret, but after talking to a good buddy and former combat Marine, I'm starting to understand the rationale. The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits. To imply a service-wide elitism, if you will. My friend's son, who is in the Army, has stated that the recruiting officers for the other services always looked so much better than the Army's. I'm sure that's a widely-held opinion. In this day and age, I can understand their predicament. It's really simple if you compare the ability for the Army to recruit the best and brightest as opposed to the other branches of the US military establishment. To some of the traditionalists, it may seem a slap in the face, BUT, in today's business-oriented environment, it's just common sense.
They might be trying to emulate Marine Corps doctrine, but we'll still look down on them no matter what they wear on their head. (Oh no THATS going to start trouble.) ;) :D



Lucullus -> (4/6/2001 6:01:00 AM)

I'm glad for the change in headgear. I think the baseball caps look stupid. What I would really like to see is to have the US military dress like Zouves. Then they would really look cool.



CaptainBrian -> (4/6/2001 6:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits.
Funny, I didn't see a rifle in the hands of the subject of that commercial... As far as the current helmet goes...who cares what it looks like... I just want the greatest degree of ballistic protection for my Marines. For the record the majority of my peers in the Army (I'm currently attending an Army School) see this Beret thing as a gimmick to attempt to artifically create esprit de corps. Doesn't our nation's Army have enough heritage, history and accomplishments to be proud of and have a sense of esprit de corps?



Svar -> (4/6/2001 7:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by edppcli: Hey you boys can choose whatever colour you want, just don't let those greasy LEGs wear marroon.
Back in the early 60's we wore blocked garrison caps with glider patches and when someone suggested that we be allowed to wear red berets, the boys over on Smokebomb Hill said that only Special Forces could wear berets and that was that. Svar



AmmoSgt -> (4/6/2001 7:38:00 AM)

I knew that would get a rise out of folks .. actually the only beret i object to is when US Troops wear a light blue one.. I love talking hats with guys ..hard to find guys with fashion sense ..LOL



McGib -> (4/6/2001 8:15:00 AM)

Personally, as a retired Canadian Sailor I was quite happy to sell my $5 green beret, which we wore prior the late 80's, to US service men for $30-40 USD just cause it was green. :D Currently the CF still wear berets, navy blue(read black) for the navy, dark green for the army, and blue for the air force. We had a good deal of espirit de corps but is sure as hell didnt come from our head gear!



jwarrenw13 -> (4/6/2001 8:28:00 AM)

Two significant issues here. First, the issue of whether it was right to go to the beret is largely an internal Army issue. Soldiers may not like it, I don't like it, but if it happens, it happens. Once they're issued and soldier are ordered to wear them, then the issue is basically over. However, the issue of buying some of the berets from the PRC is an issue the general public should be aware of. It is a separate issue. It involves spending federal funds in the PRC to buy Chinese-made berets while our airmen are being held hostage. That's a very bad move, although I know the decision was made months before the incident.



DELTA32 -> (4/6/2001 9:10:00 AM)

I think it's ridiculous to even allow ANYTHING INTO THIS COUNTRY MADE IN COMMUNIST CHINA ! As you read this I wonder how many of you go your merry way to WAL-MART and buy there ? They are the biggest retailer in the country of crap produced in Communist China. How many of you have voted to retain politicians who support Communist China with Free Trade bills ? Get real.......quit buying crap made there...and put Americans back into manufacturing ! Delta 3-2



DELTA32 -> (4/6/2001 9:14:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by murx: [B]I think it would be better if the barrets were made in US ... better for morale anyway.
I do too. Only problem is that American politicians have worked hard to close down textile mills, and clothing manufacturers here in the United States. Most apparel is now made in 3d World countries for consumption in my beloved country. In the meantime....Americans are being put out of work in increasing numbers. And government keeps employing more and more of them. We are becoming nothing more than what I found the Cold War over.....Socialist. Delta 3-2



KG Erwin -> (4/6/2001 10:07:00 AM)

To Captain Brian, can't you also see that the dearth of top quality recruits AS WELL AS THE ARMY'S REFUSAL TO ADMIT IT'S F***ED UP RIGHT NOW will only hurt it's image? I understand that you CAN'T tell the truth, BUT there are guys like Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. You don't have to respond, Captain, BUT the Army's got some real problems, and it's gonna take guys like you to speak up and demand a review of the Army's training programs and your troops' REAL readiness for action. Please excuse my being blunt, BUT the Army NEEDS someone to be just THAT, career be damned. In today's Army, balls are at a premium. The berets are just window dressing, but the ability of today's US Army to fight a real war is just a shadow of what President George I had to command.



Warrior -> (4/6/2001 10:42:00 AM)

We have become what we fought against in WWII. Of course the Army will have headgear coming from China (whose Defense Minister pubically states war with America is "inevitable") and Michael New, who refused to serve under UN command because it wasn't the Constitutional duty of our Armed Forces to fight and possibly die to support a "New World Order," gets a Dishonorable Discharge. Why would any quality/patriotic people enlist? And as for AmmoSgt getting flamed for telling the truth about China and Nazi Germany using slave labor, the flamers are either totally ignorant or just don't want to allow facts into their lives. The way we bend over whenever the Chinese whistle makes me think we lost a war... one we weren't told about.



JTGEN -> (4/6/2001 10:19:00 PM)

This discussion got way away from where it started but lets keep it that way. As one of the AmmoSgt "flamers" I can not keep my self from laughing at some of these comments. If Chinese spyplane had landed in US, it would newer end back in China, and the crew would be held captive for a long time. Especially after a mid air collission like this, so keep it real. Also why do you think world is full of people that hate the US. It is not because they are mad fundamental islamics, but because of your own politics and what you have done. Like the Libyan terrorists and the demands for retribution. OK pay yourselves for those Iranians that you shot done on their pilgrimage to Mekka and let the Libyans bomb the whitehouse and make sure the presidents daughter is in there when it happens. And what comes to the undeniable use of slave labour in Germany. Deal first with your own past before come to preach others about their actions. And now back to the barets. It is true like somebody said that barets belong to special forces. In europe at least to my knowledge that is true. In Finland that is also like with the paratroopers, marines, battledivers and so on but the black baret is for tankmen. It is also a symbol of belonging to something more demanding unit than an average grunt and normal soldier in paratroopers has more prestige than officer in artillery for example. Our paratroopers are though something more like a combination of green barets and paratroopers.



CaptainBrian -> (4/6/2001 10:32:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: To Captain Brian, can't you also see that the dearth of top quality recruits AS WELL AS THE ARMY'S REFUSAL TO ADMIT IT'S F***ED UP RIGHT NOW will only hurt it's image? I understand that you CAN'T tell the truth, BUT there are guys like Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. You don't have to respond, Captain, BUT the Army's got some real problems, and it's gonna take guys like you to speak up and demand a review of the Army's training programs and your troops' REAL readiness for action. Please excuse my being blunt, BUT the Army NEEDS someone to be just THAT, career be damned. In today's Army, balls are at a premium. The berets are just window dressing, but the ability of today's US Army to fight a real war is just a shadow of what President George I had to command.
I agree with you 100%, but I am not a member of the U. S. Army, I am a Marine. I am well aware of much of what is going on and I hope my service can continue to avoid many of these pitfalls.



Grumble -> (4/6/2001 11:03:00 PM)

quote:

"Dave Hackworth, a REAL American warrior, who have the balls to speak up and address the problems in today's Army. "
Surprising how people forget that Hackworth loudly and very publicly lambasted the Army for its equipment buys in the late 80s: M1, M2/3, HMMV among others. The very weapons that won a victory in the Gulf (well maybe he had a point about M2/3 :) ); then went on to publicly humiliate a Navy admiral by declaring he did not deserve his Vietnam decorations. Turns out he WAS entitled to wear them. Anyway, Army officers/NCOs ARE speaking up, read any copy of the Army Times. A couple years back, a Major who just came out of Staff College was telling us that the army commissioned a survey of these guys/women to see why they and their troops were dissatisifed. The Army CoS got an earful. Whether he acts on it is something O3-O5s can't really decide; but he knows.



AmmoSgt -> (4/7/2001 2:37:00 AM)

Actuallly the Black beret was standard wear by female troops wearing class A uniforms in the late 70's .early 80's ..maybe the U S Army Service Women made it stand for someting ..and now all the guys want one ???



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