Invading Tokyo (Full Version)

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santino250 -> Invading Tokyo (3/22/2015 11:58:36 PM)

Has anyone been able to invade Tokyo city, and win??

I just invaded with around 2 million men-- 1/2 mil front line combat


58,000 assault strength



witpqs -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 12:07:40 AM)

I recall from an AAR a while back that the game engine has trouble handling land battles that large.



dr.hal -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 12:20:54 AM)

Can you have that many troops in a hex????



Alfred -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 2:25:58 AM)

At least two (Bullwinkle and wdolson) have posted details of their capture of Tokyo.  Bullwinkle achieved it in March 1946 and wdolson in June 1944.  The former in a GC1, the latter in a personal mod which merged three other public mods.

When Bullwinkle started the Tokyo siege, the Japanese forces amounted to 789k troops, 5k guns, 1.2k AFVs, forts 9, half a million supplies.
When wdolson started the Tokyo siege, the Japanese AV was 16k AV with forts 9.
Both needed Soviet forces to capture the other HI bases and free up western Allied units to prosecute the siege.

Alfred




wdolson -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 5:40:44 AM)

If you are using the stacking limits pwhexe file, it would be completely impossible. It took me about 6 months to wear down the Japanese and I had to cycle out troops and let them recover.

I did see a few times where the Japanese had more than one combat at Tokyo per turn, but I never saw 5 or 6 in a turn. I'm just assuming that the multiple combats are because of the number of units in the hex. It is the actual number of units that is the critical factor.

Bill



santino250 -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 6:55:27 PM)

how do I now what if we have a stack limit exe? The Japan has over 870 units in Tokyo, and 1.5 mil troops

I have about 400 Units and 2.1 million troops

I have never had a problem with over stacking, and never had the enemy do more than one attack in the same square? let alone over 15 artillery attacks listing all of their units each time??? And not listing my attacks in the same square?? IT is the only square I have left to take over??? I have been naval bombing them for 4 months everyday?? with 1500 average casualties.... bombed the city for longer...



HansBolter -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/23/2015 9:17:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: santino250

how do I now what if we have a stack limit exe? The Japan has over 870 units in Tokyo, and 1.5 mil troops

I have about 400 Units and 2.1 million troops

I have never had a problem with over stacking, and never had the enemy do more than one attack in the same square? let alone over 15 artillery attacks listing all of their units each time??? And not listing my attacks in the same square?? IT is the only square I have left to take over??? I have been naval bombing them for 4 months everyday?? with 1500 average casualties.... bombed the city for longer...


Stock games only have stacking limits on small islands. Stacking limits everywhere is a MOD you have to install.

What you describe appears to be a stock game.



pontiouspilot -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/24/2015 3:23:45 AM)

wow...that's a lot of sushi!



wdolson -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/24/2015 9:02:25 AM)

The stacking limits are part of the pwhexe file, which has the map data. The stock pwhexe file has no stacking limits except for smaller islands, there are 2 or 3 sizes specified. There are some mods that provide stacking limit pwhexe files. I know DaBabes site has 3 pwhexe files:

stacking limits std map
stacking limits extended map
extended map, no stacking limits

These are usable for any game using the matching map files.

Bill



Anthropoid -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/24/2015 4:51:14 PM)

Just curious, why did people develop a mod to introduce stacking limit outside of atolls & small islands?

It was my understanding that the engine already included algorithms to reduce the combat effectiveness (increase disruption or something) of heavily populated hexes, no?

So, what are the quantitative parameters that define the stacking limits in these mods?

Are the real world analogues of "stacking limits" something that actual military leaders have to contend with? Obviously, organizing traffic is a real world issue, but beyond that? How many soldiers and vehicles does it actually take to "overstack" a 40nm wide hex?

That seems like a lot of available space and/or potential frontage even if you are restricted by water on all sides.



witpqs -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/24/2015 7:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Just curious, why did people develop a mod to introduce stacking limit outside of atolls & small islands?
More closely reflect RL.

It was my understanding that the engine already included algorithms to reduce the combat effectiveness (increase disruption or something) of heavily populated hexes, no?
No.

So, what are the quantitative parameters that define the stacking limits in these mods?
If you are asking about how they arrived at them, search for the threads where that was hashed out in detail.

Are the real world analogues of "stacking limits" something that actual military leaders have to contend with? Yes - absolutely! Obviously, organizing traffic is a real world issue, but beyond that? Yes, beyond that for certain. How many soldiers and vehicles does it actually take to "overstack" a 40nm wide hex? Look for the relevant threads.

That seems like a lot of available space and/or potential frontage even if you are restricted by water on all sides. After you've gone through the relevant threads, do your own calculations and see what you come up with. Make sure you take all pertinent factors into account!




BlackhorseToo -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/25/2015 7:30:01 AM)


I finished Scenario 2 vs AI Japan.

The Allies besieged Tokyo on December 20th, 1945. It fell on February 8th, 1946. The Japanese had over a million troops and 13,000 AV in the city, with maximum forts, of course. The Allies had about 90% of the non-Russian OOB on the Home Islands, and 29,000 AV in Tokyo.

The allies would bombard. Every few turns the Japanese would attack (deliberate or shock). The first time the AI attacked, it made twelve deliberate attacks the same day. Six or seven attacks in a day was more the norm. If the AI had not attacked from time-to-time, I don't see how the city could ever have been captured.

As it was, the allies counter-attacked after each failed Japanese wave of assaults, reducing the forts until Tokyo finally fell.




Anthropoid -> RE: Invading Tokyo (3/25/2015 3:10:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Just curious, why did people develop a mod to introduce stacking limit outside of atolls & small islands?
More closely reflect RL.

It was my understanding that the engine already included algorithms to reduce the combat effectiveness (increase disruption or something) of heavily populated hexes, no?
No.

So, what are the quantitative parameters that define the stacking limits in these mods?
If you are asking about how they arrived at them, search for the threads where that was hashed out in detail.

Are the real world analogues of "stacking limits" something that actual military leaders have to contend with? Yes - absolutely! Obviously, organizing traffic is a real world issue, but beyond that? Yes, beyond that for certain. How many soldiers and vehicles does it actually take to "overstack" a 40nm wide hex? Look for the relevant threads.

That seems like a lot of available space and/or potential frontage even if you are restricted by water on all sides. After you've gone through the relevant threads, do your own calculations and see what you come up with. Make sure you take all pertinent factors into account!




Any suggestions on search terms, you know unique phrases that you might recall being used in any of the threads? I looked a bit yesteday but didn't find anything pertinent.

Not asking you to look for me, just . . . _if_ you can remember any unique phrases or posters jot 'em down for me?

I've always been fascinated by the concepts of stacking rules and maths used in games to modfiy or regulate the effectiveness of military units occupy a common abstracted unit of space. Yet I've NEVER seen anyone link to any real world military or military science documents that approach the topic from a scientific or empirical standpoint and lay out certain operating principles.

Obviously, "stacking limits" will differ dramatically based on era. How much space does a Roman Centurion really need after all? Once they are in formation the total volume used by the soldiers themselves is pretty small relative to what they might normally use.

. . . Anyway, just curious :)



caotiencuong -> RE: Invading Tokyo (5/9/2015 10:54:52 AM)

At least four have posted details of their capture of Tokyo.



GetAssista -> RE: Invading Tokyo (5/9/2015 5:24:47 PM)

If playing AI to the bitter end, there is kinda counterintuitive incentive to not finish off AI combat units aroung the map, instead keeping them surrounded in "POW camps". Else they are revived at capital cities and mostly sit there, making final siege very costly.



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