What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (Full Version)

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rainman2015 -> What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/23/2015 8:33:14 PM)

This may be a dumb question, as i haven't gotten into this part of the game at all so have no idea of what it looks like yet.

But, wondering what is to keep the Soviets from constantly attacking up and down the line with minor and major offensives as the war gets into 1943+, and thus just bleeding the Germans to death (like you hear of them bleeding the Luftwaffe to death with airbase attacks)?

How does the game not devolve into this at least by mid-game, what keeps it from happening? Is it that the Germans units are just too strong and dug into x2 forts and swamps, etc, so too hard to attack constantly?

Just attrition alone (by being next to enemy units) will have a serious effect on the Germans i am imagining. But, this is all from turn 4 of my first campaign game, so what do i know! :)

Randy
:)



morvael -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/23/2015 8:44:50 PM)

Nothing will keep them from doing that. Eventually they become too strong to attack and chop off some pieces to increase their AP expenditure and you will be forced to withstand blows until your manpower pool will be exhausted, your units will start to crumble and then things will got mobile again. This time Germans will be on the receiving end... From my experience it might be good to put panzers at the front sometimes, not always in reserve. You get a lot of tanks late war, but little men. Only infantry on the front will cause high manpower losses and this is what you try to avoid.



loki100 -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/23/2015 10:05:04 PM)

one possible constraint will be the new supply production dynamics. You'll notice in turns with a lot of combat, then the amount of supply diverted to ammunition goes up substantially.

If, as the Soviets, you just about produce enough supply for it to be ok on normal turns, then sustained operations across the front will start to empty your global supply pools. But, as with much else, that may depend on a relatively narrow range of variables (HI/army size/amount of combat)



micheljq -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/23/2015 11:14:50 PM)

Hello, not sure i fully understand. I play the soviets and i constantly attack since end of 1942. Not everywhere but as soon as i see that the odds are good, i do.

Michel.



rainman2015 -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/24/2015 6:04:45 PM)

I just haven't seen that part of the game yet, and i imagine the Germans getting hit over and over and over in attrition style attacks where the Soviets don't care too much that they lose a lot, since they are bleeding the Germans, and there being no way for the Germans to not bleed to death quickly (like i keep reading about happening to the Luftwaffe without house rules for airbase attacks).

Maybe it is not like that though, or maybe the Germans are much more resilient than i am thinking they will be as the game gets into that stage.

Randy
:)



rainman2015 -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/24/2015 6:09:19 PM)

Hard to imagine running out of supply or ammunition, you would think that would always be available assuming you had a good rail connection (which the Soviets will almost always have during late 42-43=44). But, i imagine in real life that the lulls on the fronts were to build up supplies and refit forces, etc

So i guess i am wondering if the game simulates the need for that, or can the Soviets just keep attacking and bleeding the Germans turn after turn up and down the front later in the game, bleeding them out much faster than what really happened, rather than the Soviets building up for awhile, then launching a big offensive. Does the game simulate the need for that?

Randy
:)



jwolf -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/24/2015 6:18:58 PM)

Playing as Soviets you can run into supply shortages for two reasons:

1. Local. If you make sustained attacks some distance from your rail lines, those units will run short fairly quickly. If this is the only problem, you solve it by sticking close to rail lines and repairing them steadily as you advance.

2. Global. This is more insidious. If your industry has been damaged too badly by the Germans, and/or if your whole army is oversized, you may run into chronic shortages. This is much more difficult to fix.



morvael -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/24/2015 7:38:25 PM)

For 2. you can now throttle various categories of industry that use supplies.



micheljq -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/25/2015 5:56:20 PM)

I can't say if the soviet can bleed the germans faster than historically. I did not play enough.

As far as I know the red army was quite capable of doing prolonged large scale attacks by the end of 1942 and beyond, like Operation Uranus november 1942 and in 1944 Operation Bagration. I agree Red army was facing large logistic issues in 1941-42 though, but at one point those issues were resolved, to a certain point.

In game, i can say that the mud put quite a stop to any offensive operations from both sides. Something i find strange is the fact that the whermach was quite on the offensive during the winter 1942-43 in game. I though they were facing huge logistic problems during winter. I do not speak of the first winter 1941-42, where the whermach is on its knees, but the other winters.

I was thinking that whermach would have problems in any winter, but not as problematic as the first winter.

Michel



rainman2015 -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/26/2015 2:25:22 PM)

Yes, for sure mud turns will put a stop to most things i would guess (haven't gotten to any of that in the game yet, yes, total newbie here).

Just trying to imagine what would create the lulls between Soviet offensives, then the big offensives. Rather imagining a kind of constant offensive once the Soviets are strong enough to matchup with the German CVs.

Wondering how many people have played the game all thru 43-45 to find out...:)

Randy
:)



morvael -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/26/2015 2:29:57 PM)

Check out the AAR by cpt flam and myself. I just have to report about the last 3 turns in February 45. The rest is present there to see (and read).



javats -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/29/2015 8:03:13 PM)

This is why as the german you must minimize loses during the 1st winter and
always attack, attack, attack to cut soviet units. (like having a tiger by the tail).
Once Soviets can build up larger units it's over for the german (against a good soviet player).
Note I feel best always play historical winter because any thing else is bad for soviet.



micheljq -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/30/2015 6:05:34 PM)

But i suspect that a good defensive player can be a tough nut to crack as a german.

He must know when and where it is time to stop being on the offense and be on the defense.

Some players are good offensively rather poor defensively. At least from what i saw in a boardgame called World in Flames.

Michel.



javats -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (3/31/2015 9:05:52 PM)

I agree with micheljq about timing, Yet for the german it is either attack offensive or attack defensive.
which WITE captures nicely, ( the weakness and strength of German army. )



Gabriel B. -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (4/1/2015 6:59:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainman2015

I just haven't seen that part of the game yet, and i imagine the Germans getting hit over and over and over in attrition style attacks where the Soviets don't care too much that they lose a lot, since they are bleeding the Germans, and there being no way for the Germans to not bleed to death quickly (like i keep reading about happening to the Luftwaffe without house rules for airbase attacks).

Maybe it is not like that though, or maybe the Germans are much more resilient than i am thinking they will be as the game gets into that stage.

Randy
:)


Defensive cv of a average german division in level 2 fort or level 1 fort but in light woods is 24 .

2 strong soviet stacks made up of divisions can only get close to 1 to 1 odds in 1942 .

So you depend on engineers to reduce german fortification
or a doubling of soviet cv during battle due to masive ground element superiority and leadership .

Now if the atacks fails , the fun part begins [:)]
the strong soviet stack cv is basicly cut in half doe to fatigue and combat loses , their morale goes down the german go up , the axis side trows his reserves in a imediate counteratack usually with close to 60 ofensive cv backed up by masive pioneer support and air support.
The units that failed to brake the axis line are trown back and the fortification level in the hex is lost .
Lesson learn – the units that failed are pulled back after the failed atack and replaced by fresh troops.

However this is the shortest way to run out of reserves. [:D]















rainman2015 -> RE: What is to keep Soviets from attacking constantly? (4/1/2015 2:27:01 PM)

Interesting stuff, hard to imagine the game in late 42+ for me at this point, still playing the early campaign game for my 1st time as the Germans and learning that part of it. Those VERY deep looking in depth lines from AARs in 42-43+ look impossible to attack to me from turn 5 of my 1st game! :)

Randy
:)



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