The BREAKOUT--I can't kill 'em all!

The BREAKOUT--I can't kill 'em all! (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> The BREAKOUT--I can't kill 'em all! (6/28/2015 8:28:59 PM)
March 28, 1942 Final Tally from the ships fleeing Pearl Harbor: BB California CL Honolulu 23 PT 14 AK 2 YO 2 AKL 3 AM 2 TK 1 AO 1 PG 3 PC 5 AG AV Wright AV Tangier 4 AD 3 AE 2 AR 3 AP 1 CM 2 AM 2 AVP 1 AD 1 DMS 2 DM 1 AG 59 Ships and 23 PT Boats. There are more but I won't know until intelligence reveals it. Sunk PH BBs: Idaho, Pennsylvania, and--perhaps--Arizona. Tomorrow the current opens on the final act Operation Eastern Storm. The INVASION will occur at dawn the 29th...

pws1225 -> RE: The BREAKOUT--I can't kill 'em all! (6/28/2015 9:34:12 PM)
Banzai! [sm=00000613.gif]

John 3rd -> "The Emporer Sends His Blessing..." (6/28/2015 10:59:23 PM)
March 30, 1942 We are A SHORE! It isn't bad and the troops are in fantastic shape. Will Post details in a while... [image]local://upfiles/18041/808AB2A81B27420A854A0818BC655033.jpg[/image]

John 3rd -> RE: "The Emporer Sends His Blessing..." (6/28/2015 11:01:55 PM)
Still have the last invasion force to land tomorrow. For some reason it was just a hex short of the target. This is why we landed on the 30th and NOT the 31st. The first two Invasion Forces have unloaded unloaded everything and are headed back to Lahaina.

BattleMoose -> RE: "The Emporer Sends His Blessing..." (6/29/2015 2:06:31 AM)
I really liked to use the older BBs in a massive taskforce, about 8 of them and move slowly upward of the Solomon islands, with land based air cover there isn't all that much Japan can do about it, save appearance of the full KB and if the KB is there then my CVs can be somewhere different. And they are so durable that in that its unlikely that one will experience fatal damage. Massive, durable anti-aircraft platforms, love em. :D And on the once occasion it did come under the full fury of a KB strike, it was lack lustre, split over many other task forces and it seems to be mostly a problem with the AI, but the KB just won't launch a full strike against a BB fleet.

John 3rd -> "The Emporer Sends His Blessing..." (6/29/2015 3:06:13 AM)
March 31, 1942 This is the END of the invasion bonus and Japan is FIRMLY ashore at Oahu. At a cost of 8 AK, the entire Invasion Force is landed and all five ID plus support troops looks excellent. Raw AV shows Japan at a 3-1 advantage. I will not launch my first attack until we have several days of naval and shore bombardment. Supplies are always a factor and I don't want to waste them in an early attack. Notice that there is only one complete US ID present. Those smaller Infantry and Marine units should get chewed up pretty quick---I HOPE!!! [sm=sterb011.gif] Here is everything sitting just off the beaches in Oahu: [image]local://upfiles/18041/E70ADF38FE78468EB2E35A5CFF976EFA.jpg[/image][sm=sterb032.gif]

John 3rd -> There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 2:12:25 PM)
There is a war being fought elsewhere you know! Java Soerabaja falls this day (April 1st). After such a fast conquest of Singers and Manila/Clark Java has proven to be a very tough nut to crack. Rather ironic. Batavia has held vs three ID for 6-7 weeks. OK. Order a full strength ID from Soerabaja to take things over the top at Batavia. Hawaii Back in Hawaiian Waters, KB and most of the Fleet are getting some R&R at Lahaina. The carriers have been disbanded for three days and, I believe, that is the most time down the CVs have had since the war started. Am sucked dry of fuel right now. Have 32,000 arriving tomorrow, 32,000 more in 2-3 days, and another shipment of 60,000 just passing Truk. I've been pulling my fuel from the stockpile at Truk (nearly dry now) and the DEI. Fuel is good in the Home Islands so that helps there. Supply is low as well. I landed roughly 40,000 with the army at PH. Have another 100,000 on the way. Have already begun withdrawing merchants back to the DEI and Home Waters from Hawaii. Nearly 125 AK and AP are headed home presently, Need them for high speed transport and/or resource hauling. As everyone knows an Operation is Hawaii is a DANGEROUS gamble stretching fuel, supply, and the Fleet to the absolute limit. We've succeeded but have to redress the issues QUICKLY! It is my profound hope that we capture the fuel at PH INTACT! Need about 350,000 to balance out what I have spent in the operation. If we gain more then we're ahead--less then not so much. We'll see. PH Plans I am waiting for three Sentai of Sally to arrive so I can shift my Betty/Nells over to training and naval attack. Once those Bombers arrive, then I will launch my first attack. Figure his Forts are Sz-4 minimum and probably -5. Want his supplies at ZERO! Michael has told me that he got NOTHING into PH from the beginning to now. This leads me to think there isn't much left on the cup board. Creating all those PT Boats earlier and the nightly bombardments have taken a significant toll. Will move EVERY Kate I have off the CVs and let them add to the bomb weight hitting the bases to see if that helps. What next? Dan (Canoerebel) made the assertion earlier that a Japanense PH would be a nightmare. I WANT to see this happen. Steps: 1. Form up two STF of mixed DDs and AMCs to set-up shop along the eastern edge of the mapboard. These units will form Hunter-Killer Groups of 2 AMC and 3 DD. They will commence the Commerce War in earnest. 2. Have pulled back nearly all my SS for R&R, system repair, and replenishment. Once they are taken care of they will move out and plant themselves SW and NW of the West Coast hunting American shipping. 3. Sitting at Adak are 4 TK Reg, an ID, a second ID enroute, and 2 Engineering Regiments. With another ID or two this force could be a legitimate threat to some point along the West Coast/Alaska. Am open for ideas and thoughts. Questions regarding the first five months would be welcome as well. [image]local://upfiles/18041/2B11BE40E68F44F39A4C83A4C3533862.jpg[/image]

Canoerebel -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 2:34:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John 3rd What next? Dan (Canoerebel) made the assertion earlier that a Japanense PH would be a nightmare. I WANT to see this happen. John, if I said that it was in context of Hawaii being part of a well-thought-out and integrated plan that led to Canada and a threat to western USA. That was more than a month ago. You've spent that month focusing on Hawaii without giving much thought to what came afterwards, as best I can tell. I don't think you've given any thoguht to what needed to be happening while you were whittling down Hawaii. IMO, you've probably waited far too long to do anything meaningful against the USA. I think Michael's nightmare is restricted to the loss of Hawaii and his battleships. The former is not really all that significant. The latter less so. I think Hawaii was a good strategic target for you, especially had Michael committed his carriers. Many times applying pressure to an opponent prompts responses that lead to important victories. But Michael hasn't reacted (at least yet), which was wise on his part. Hawaii would be very helpful if part of a plan (well thought out from the start of the game) to take Alaska and Hawaii and then hammer the western USA. But apart from that, I don't think Hawaii is all that important. To clarify, I think you've accompished a good deal and that it was worth the effort on the chance that you might have provoked a carrier battle. But in and of itself, Hawaii isn't critical. You don't lose anything, because you didn't trigger reinforcements (as if you had invaded New Zealand, etc.) You bagged some troops, and ships and will have some bases and presumably some supplies and/or fuel. That's good work, but it stopped well short of where it might have stopped. I'd love to see an experienced player use Hawaii as part of an integrated plan that incorporates North America. I'm not sure of all the possibilities, but strategic bombing, permanently destroying industry, and auto victory would be possibilities. In that scenario, Hawaii in Japanese hands would be a nightmare for the Allies. In most scenarios Japan can take Hawaii if it wants to and commits what's needed. I think the best counter by the Allies is to have its carriers in the vicinity to keep the Japanese honest, to slow things down, and to make Japan do everything more carefully. Japan could probably still take the islands, but doing so would be more risky, slower, and probably would turn it into one of those Guilford Courthouse "another such victory will ruin us" moments. You're in a good position now and you've done something noteworthy. But Michael isn't crippled by any means.

John 3rd -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 2:50:30 PM)
You are correct regarding Michael. I had truly hoped he'd use his West Coast CVs but once I revealed the power of my concentrated air arm that chance went away! He is fully intact and dangerous presently. I've given LOTS of thought to what happens AFTERWARDS. This is why those forces are sitting or on the way to Adak. They are all 50-70% prepped for Prince Rupert. Problem is fuel and not having PH taken at present. I am going to use the siege time to continue development of plans and thinking. Just don't know how feasible things are at present for a further eastward lunge. Taking Alaska is do-able without too much issue and I have the means arriving to do that. Threatening and/or moving into Canada is possible. This is a wide open conversation readers. What do you think?

Sangeli -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 4:40:13 PM)
I have a different view than Canoerebel when it comes to the utility of a Japanese PH. I definitely see a big advantage to raiding and disruptive activity on the west coast but I also see an opportunity in the South Pacific. That opportunity will persist longer than will the west coast one I might add. As a result, I think you need to go for Christmas island next to put further strain on Allied convoys going to Australia. With PH and Christmas Island in your hand, the Allies will have basically nothing between the west coast and Samoa. Everything going to Australia will have to go waaaay south to avoid patrol planes near Xmas island. I imagine small surface tasks forces based at Xmas deployed to the south could have pretty good success at a moderate cost of fuel. And one thing we probably all forgot is how this would affect Allied CV OPs near Australia. Should a big CV like the Lexington take a torpedo near Australia, where can it go for shipyard repairs? Michael would have to send either to Cape Town or all the way to the west coast along the potentially dangerous convoy routes. Without a shipyard at PH, it's going to make fighting in the Pacific a lot more difficult. Taking Xmas island further complicates all of that for the Allies.

Canoerebel -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 4:40:59 PM)
It's Spring 1942, so you can choose most any place on the map and raise havoc there. Alaska, North Island New Zealand, SW Oz, NE India, whatever. You can just keep going from one place to the next, with no real thought to the future or how it all comes together as part of an integrated plan, until you finally bump into defeat. Doing this might provoke Michael to do something that results in meeting engagements that turn out well for you. Those will be victories. But the larger question: Why do these things? Are you just doing a sequence of unrelated operations that don't have some bigger picture in mind? Or is everything part of a complimentary, integrated plan that culminates dramatically? I've gotten the feeling that yours is the former, in part because real life (work, family) keep you from sitting down and spending the vast amount of time needed to create a plan that integrated. You know what you're doing. You're brash. You enjoy pushing the envelope and watching things crash and burn. But you really weren't thinking beyond Hawaii. So moving on Alaska won't mean much unless you're fortunate enough to provoke an ill-advised response by Michael.

Sangeli -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 5:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel But the larger question: Why do these things? Are you just doing a sequence of unrelated operations that don't have some bigger picture in mind? Or is everything part of a complimentary, integrated plan that culminates dramatically? I agree that whatever plan John pursues has to be an integrative strategy, but I disagree with your assertion that it is too late or John is too busy to come up with a strong well rounded plan. Only a few things really need to be thought of well in advance I think: building up units/supply and prepping units for invasions. And John is already doing both. Moreover, emergency reinforcements for a west coast invasion really limit John's options meaning there aren't a lot of different invasion plans to consider. Other things like which cities and targets to attack with bombers, anti-convoy patrols, etc, can be determined as action progresses since they can be adjusted relatively easily. As Moltke the Elder famously claimed, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Ultimately the difficulty is NOT coming up with an integrated plan ahead of time and sticking too it to the "T". It's easy to come up with a good plan on paper. Rather, the difficulty is to quickly and decisively adjust plans to still support the main overarching goal when Michael throws wrenches at you. I think John can do that as he's done many time in the past.

Canoerebel -> RE: There are OTHER Fronts ya know... (6/30/2015 5:35:44 PM)
John can of course come up with a well-thought-out plan to implement from this point forward, but it's pretty evident that he didn't have one already in place. He's just now thinking about what to do next. (That's not a criticism; it's an observation.) If a Japanese player is going to focus on North America seriously, he pretty much has to begin planning on December 7, 1941. He certainly can't wait until April 1,1942 even if he has captured Hawaii in the meantime. To much has to be done to go into such a massive operation. (Not that John should have pursued such a strategy, just that doing so requires alot more preparation than has been done in this case.) John can still make beneficial use of Hawaii in raids. And eventually he might draw Michael into a fight that goes John's way. So this has been successful and it may prove even more successful in the future. But its way, way too late for John to pursue the strategy he was preliminarily considering two months back.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: The BREAKOUT--I can't kill 'em all! (6/30/2015 7:04:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John 3rd Odd question: For the AFB out there, what impact would it make not having ANY Pearl Harbor BBs left? It appears pretty realistic that I will sink all eight BBs. Are they valuable at all? I know bombardments are a good tool with them but what do you think? Their chief utility is for bombardment duty. They are also useful in amphibious task forces for CD gun suppression and for absorbing (without sinking) CD gun and aircraft attacks, thereby sparing the transports. Other uses: ---AAA platforms for jeep carrier convoys ---Torpedo bait (in separate convoys). Though they are an encumbrance if you have to run ---Rarely, purposeful use as a gunnery platform against Jap BB's early in the war if you are defending a base with air cover. They tend to get shot up do to their inferior speed.

John 3rd -> The Perils of Victory (6/30/2015 10:19:12 PM)
Great discussion fellas. Dan--your Posts are, as always--relevant to the current and future of the campaign. You and Michael are the two players/people who know me best. The three of us know just how much deeper this goes then just 'a game!' Newer players who joined in last 4-5 years don't understand this but let me simply say that Dan, Michael, and I have been together during a highly horrific portion of my life. Keep on commenting my friend! Sangeli--This upcoming victory at Pearl would never have happened without your fine advice. I KNOW that and thank you for it. As to the game... I spent most of my time, while making Subway sandwiches, today stewing on 'what to do.' Preliminary thinking is simple: Dan is right. My strategic planning and thinking never went beyond taking Hawaii. If I did have more time to absolutely immerse myself in the game then perhaps it might have gone farther but reality is it did not. Here are Ideas and Options towards an integrative strategy for the rest of 1942: 1. Alaska I am already positioned for movement here with both ground and some naval forces. With the addition of an ID or two taking out Alaska would not be a major problem. Would have to take Dutch Harbor, Kodiak, and hit the mainland. Given time (prep) this could take the entire summer of 1942 to take care of. Good Side: a. Would not take a bunch of fuel since we're already there and distances from Adak--Umak--Cold Bay are not too bad at all. b. Compliments the commerce war I can stage out of Hawaii. c. If we get far enough along, my 4EB could threaten SOME bases in Canada. d. Would seal the Northern Pacific from any American threat for a LONG time. e. No American CVs present. This could be done fairly economically using some of the older forces in the Fleet. Bad Side: a. No real strategic gain other then c and d above. b. Could be seen as a total waste of time and resources. 2. South Pacific Sangeli--I already have a TON of the South Pacific. All the Line Islands, Savaii, and Pago Pago are Japanese. I could go for a complete severing of the USA from Australia and the west by grabbing Tahiti and other bases around there. Could also widen the salient by taking Suva. Good Side: 1. COULD force a Fleet engagement. 2. Already have the bases for a serious jump off in that direction. 3. Massive logistical nightmare for the Allies for supply and transport TFs. 4. Would seal the southern shipment zones of the West Coast just like Alaska seals the northern. Bad Side: 1. Fuel--Fuel--Fuel. 2. Distance--Distance--Distance. Other Options: 1. India--HELL NO! What about Diego Garcia? Hmm... 2. Am going to take the NW Australia Coast. 3. A threat to take Perth would certainly draw an Allied response. Ideas? I'll take 'what about?' 'have you thought of?' 'this might sound crazy but...'

BattleMoose -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 1:56:50 AM)
Taking a few of the islands south of PH and you can really disrupt the movement of supplies, fuel and troops into Australia and the South Pacific. Michael will, well, would have already shifted his logistics from the Cape Town to Perth route. Disrupt that and you will effectively be able to seriously handicap any Allied campaign in the South Pacific. Raiding that supply route would be grand, but if you can take Perth, that would be so bad for Allied logistics.

John 3rd -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 5:05:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BattleMoose Taking a few of the islands south of PH and you can really disrupt the movement of supplies, fuel and troops into Australia and the South Pacific. Michael will, well, would have already shifted his logistics from the Cape Town to Perth route. Disrupt that and you will effectively be able to seriously handicap any Allied campaign in the South Pacific. Raiding that supply route would be grand, but if you can take Perth, that would be so bad for Allied logistics. Of all the options I listed above, I am pretty CERTAIN that this one would bring on a Fleet Engagement...

JocMeister -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 5:59:03 AM)
Why do all Japanese players believe Perth is critical to the allied war effort? (Hint: Its not) [;)]

BattleMoose -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 7:14:08 AM)
Without Pearl and Perth, how would you plan to get fuel and supplies into Australia?

JocMeister -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 7:42:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BattleMoose Without Pearl and Perth, how would you plan to get fuel and supplies into Australia? I�ll send you a PM since my opponent reads this AAR. [:)]

John 3rd -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 2:08:03 PM)
What matters is that MICHAEL considers it to be essential for his war plans within the game.

HansBolter -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 2:58:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BattleMoose Without Pearl and Perth, how would you plan to get fuel and supplies into Australia? The most obvious way would be Cape Town to Port Augusta, Adelaide or Melbourne.

Yaab -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 3:11:05 PM)
Los Angeles to Rangiroa (port maxes out a level 5), Rangiroa to Auckland (port maxes out at level 9), Auckland to Melbourne.

vicberg -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 3:43:00 PM)
Are you playing with Auto Victory? If so, then anywhere that gets you closer. Alaska area has some big VP there. I'm not in front of the game right now, but Anchorage is 250, Juno is 500, Prince Rhupert is 250. That's 1000 right there, not including the smaller bases. Here's a question though. Perth isn't vital to war effort. Alaska isn't very strategic except for some bombing and securing the Kuriles for a while. SoPac isn't truly vital, since there are alternate routes into OZ. If Auto-Victory is in play, expansion makes sense. If it isn't, then why bother? Secure the perimeter, conserve fuel and supply. Make sure outer and inner perimeters have sufficient air/construction and build everything up. If you have an opponent that you KNOW you can lure into a fight, like some other AARs that I'm reading (names redacted to protect the innocent or any minors possibly involved), then makes sense to continue the expansion. Otherwise, I'm wondering why Japanese players are always expanding to point of economic exhaustion?

Panther Bait -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 4:06:50 PM)
I'd have to agree that interdicting the SLOC from West Coast to SOPAC to OZ is not terribly useful if you leave the East Coast-Cape Town-Oz route open. Unfortunately, it seems like the Indian Ocean route can really only be closed at either end, Cape Town or Oz. The rest of the route is all open ocean. And I agree with others that taking Perth is not a one-and-done route to closing the Indian Ocean SLOC. In fact closing (or even just seriously threatening) the Pacific SLOC pretty much removes the usefulness of using Pearl for raiding (you can't raid shipping that doesn't exist) or creating a fleet engagement. If I were playing the Allies, the fleet engagement won't happen until I was ready to counter-invade Pearl, which is probably quite a ways away. That makes Pearl a strategic problem because you either need to maintain lots of surface assets near there almost continuously (meaning they can't be used elsewhere), or inevitably ceding the initiative to the USN when the invasion does happen, probably late when they are at near parity in carriers anyways. Closing both SLOCs at the same time, if it can even be accomplished, might get you a fleet engagement near Oz, or force the Allies to take single-axis approach (like India-Burma-Southeast Asia) that abandons Oz completely. My thoughts anyways, Mike P.S. My stirring-the-pot, not very practicable, lunatic suggestion would be to invade Cape Town. Really make Michael sweat.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 4:18:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab Los Angeles to Rangiroa (port maxes out a level 5), Rangiroa to Auckland (port maxes out at level 9), Auckland to Melbourne. The long-legged AK's and TK's can reach Southern Oz via the "polar route" without a stop so you don't even need Tahiti. Now, they have to refuel for the trip back, which is a minor inefficiency but, as there are plenty of long haul TK's and unlimited fuel in the US it doesnt matter.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 4:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait I'd have to agree that interdicting the SLOC from West Coast to SOPAC to OZ is not terribly useful if you leave the East Coast-Cape Town-Oz route open. Unfortunately, it seems like the Indian Ocean route can really only be closed at either end, Cape Town or Oz. The rest of the route is all open ocean. And I agree with others that taking Perth is not a one-and-done route to closing the Indian Ocean SLOC. In fact closing (or even just seriously threatening) the Pacific SLOC pretty much removes the usefulness of using Pearl for raiding (you can't raid shipping that doesn't exist) or creating a fleet engagement. If I were playing the Allies, the fleet engagement won't happen until I was ready to counter-invade Pearl, which is probably quite a ways away. That makes Pearl a strategic problem because you either need to maintain lots of surface assets near there almost continuously (meaning they can't be used elsewhere), or inevitably ceding the initiative to the USN when the invasion does happen, probably late when they are at near parity in carriers anyways. Very interesting analysis.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 4:33:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait P.S. My stirring-the-pot, not very practicable, lunatic suggestion would be to invade Cape Town. Really make Michael sweat. Intersting. How does one trigger the activation of the Zulu?

Lecivius -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 7:58:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait P.S. My stirring-the-pot, not very practicable, lunatic suggestion would be to invade Cape Town. Really make Michael sweat. Intersting. How does one trigger the activation of the Zulu? Cross the Line of Death, by marching north to Mozambique [:D]

desicat -> RE: The Perils of Victory (7/1/2015 8:27:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait P.S. My stirring-the-pot, not very practicable, lunatic suggestion would be to invade Cape Town. Really make Michael sweat. Intersting. How does one trigger the activation of the Zulu? By manufacturing bayonets of course! Colour Sergeant Bourne: It's a miracle. Lieutenant John Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle. Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

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