What's the deal with Bulgaria? (Full Version)

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AEWHistory -> What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 6:21:07 AM)

okay, so I updated to v1.62 and have been playing the CPs. In every game since then (over half a dozen) the countdown to Bulgaria entering the war begins and then at the 20+ week marker the number turns red and stops counting down. I never had this problem in previous versions. I've tried playing different ways thinking I was somehow screwing up their entry, but nothing works. Playing the CPs without Bulgaria is a PITA....

As an aside, I have mixed feelings about the new version. The game has gone from VERY difficult for the CP to VERY easy. Anyone else feeling this way?



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 2:10:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AEWHistory

okay, so I updated to v1.62 and have been playing the CPs. In every game since then (over half a dozen) the countdown to Bulgaria entering the war begins and then at the 20+ week marker the number turns red and stops counting down. I never had this problem in previous versions. I've tried playing different ways thinking I was somehow screwing up their entry, but nothing works. Playing the CPs without Bulgaria is a PITA....

As an aside, I have mixed feelings about the new version. The game has gone from VERY difficult for the CP to VERY easy. Anyone else feeling this way?


Hi Neighbor!

In the past if CP uses "poison gas" (event) first: that usually causes Italy to enter sooner and holds back (or stops) "Bulgaria" on the March to War.

Bob



euroaron -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 2:31:54 PM)

i read game_diplomacy.lua and if i read it well then if the EA is too strong, bulgaria will not join to CP. this looks ok, who wants to be with the losers? there, there.
solution a: faction alignment of bulgaria is to be set closer to zero in 1914.lua. in this case the country joins sooner, if the conditions do not make this intention freeze again...
solution b: rescript game_diplomacy.lua. wow, it is complicated, even i would not do it... but good task for the developers.

CP used first poison gas speeds up italy, portugal and romania, indeed. but for me bulgaria had frozen already before this event happened.



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 3:01:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: euroaron

i read game_diplomacy.lua and if i read it well then if the EA is too strong, bulgaria will not join to CP. this looks ok, who wants to be with the losers? there, there.
solution a: faction alignment of bulgaria is to be set closer to zero in 1914.lua. in this case the country joins sooner, if the conditions do not make this intention freeze again...
solution b: rescript game_diplomacy.lua. wow, it is complicated, even i would not do it... but good task for the developers.

CP used first poison gas speeds up italy, portugal and romania, indeed. but for me bulgaria had frozen already before this event happened.

What you are talking about was a major bone of contention with players in an earlier thread (year or more ago) and it was felt that what you are reading in the lua files was the source of the problem. This is a shout out to: "JOHNNY BRAVO" to fix the issue, for it does have a tendency to louse up the game, if you really need Bulgaria to enter. Also, it tends to louse up the Salonika donation too for the Brits IIRC.



euroaron -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 4:50:44 PM)

i think i have found it.
there is an alliance total power check based on the alliance strength (of the armies i presume) plus the economies plus 50 (fix value).
this check is ignored in 1914 and (or???) in the first 20 turn (i think this is for other starts than 1914).
and check this out: my bulgaria was keen to join CP in the 14th round (still 1914), but in the 15th (1915) she said no. surprise, surprise.
i do not understand the language of the game, i am just a hobby scripter in javascript... but most computer languages are similar to each other. there are interesting things in this section, like transfer resources regarding PP and ammo...



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/12/2015 6:09:08 PM)

Kirk did hint that he might introduce nation to nation transfers



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 3:02:39 AM)

Transfer of resources is something sorely lacking in this game. IMHO, there should be a way to help your allies, albeit modestly. It would be interesting if this help had to either move along rail or be converted into a transport ship and sailed to the appropriate harbor. This would risk said help getting destroyed, which is quite realistic.

Btw, this may be what you're already talking about as well, but I do wish the game had a more robust diplomatic component. For example, I'd love for the CP and Entente to be able to try to gain favor with neutrals and maybe even sway one or another onto their side. In fact, I'm not even sure what moves the national sympathies of the different countries save for using a gas attack.



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 3:07:30 AM)

Hey Bob,

I think you might have hit on my problem but I'm going to play it out to be sure. I do tend to be a little "gassy" when I play and Bulgaria probably caught wind when the news broke of my gas attack..... That would explain the Bulgarians moving away from me.... [:D]

But seriously, I tend to just upgrade my artillery without thinking and this has lead to me using gas first, so my guess is you've hit on my problem. What happens if the allies use gas first?

BTW, really enjoying our game!

Thanks so much,
Aaron




quote:

ORIGINAL: operating


quote:

ORIGINAL: AEWHistory

okay, so I updated to v1.62 and have been playing the CPs. In every game since then (over half a dozen) the countdown to Bulgaria entering the war begins and then at the 20+ week marker the number turns red and stops counting down. I never had this problem in previous versions. I've tried playing different ways thinking I was somehow screwing up their entry, but nothing works. Playing the CPs without Bulgaria is a PITA....

As an aside, I have mixed feelings about the new version. The game has gone from VERY difficult for the CP to VERY easy. Anyone else feeling this way?


Hi Neighbor!

In the past if CP uses "poison gas" (event) first: that usually causes Italy to enter sooner and holds back (or stops) "Bulgaria" on the March to War.

Bob





Jagdtiger14 -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 4:47:38 AM)

The board game Fatal Alliances (ADG...basically World in Flames WWI) has an awesome diplomacy feature. It should be looked at as an outline for this game's diplomacy. I highly recommend those interested in a diplomacy feature look into it.



euroaron -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 7:23:12 AM)

plenty of good ideas in this forum.
resources transfer is so obvious, albeit in this case the roles of the overseas countries should be revised seriously, i mean why would for example portugal waste her manpower if she is able to support her allies with a decent resource support? sure, some units, but not risking efficiency. thorough thinking over wishful one, please.
diplomacy is also easy to put in the game, like in every turn parties can spend some PPs per countries to push/pull/move their preferences in the desired direction. as PP is the only significant resource in the game, what else is imaginable? yet i consider any spent PPs wasted in advance. why? questions arise, the most important ones: turkey and italy? turkey signed a secret alliance with germany in august 1914, the direction was set. italy also received a counter-offer from the allies against the ahm wish of neutrality, what better option the CP could have offered to her? and there is romania, the greatest loser and winner in the same time. and the other countries, they did not join with good reasons. PP is not an option here to gain any country, in diplomacy happened what happened, i say.



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 10:45:18 AM)

When I first got this game I'd be checking all the neutral countries every turn looking for the ones that might look to be entering (never happened) with few exceptions. always felt there was something missing in diplomacy, but could not figure what it was or how to implement a course of action to make diplomacy more viable. I'd be surprised if the dev's put more effort into the diplomacy side of the game, however wished they would.




AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 8:38:30 PM)

It would have taken substantial efforts to change the flow of history, I agree. However, I'm not sure it was impossible. For example, India enthusiastically supported the UK because they hoped for home rule. In theory, the Turks could have promised this to the Arabs in return for support and/or remaining neutral. The same aorta of things could be said for the countries I think. Italy was offered parts of AH by the allies (the Dalmatian coast) as well as Trieste and Tyrol. They were only offered Tunisia by the Central powers. If I were the CPs I'd have offered Italy the moon--or, in this case, all of North Africa and maybe more. Italian entry into the war on the side of the central powers would likely have won them the war.

Anyway, I only point this out to suggest these were theoretical possibilities. I wholeheartedly agree that using PPs as an abstraction for diplomatic offers and whatnot sounds great.

Perhaps if there is another version of this game the map will be larger and allow for a slightly more nuanced rendition of the First World War. I'd love to have an active Persian gulf front for example. Still, as it is this is a very nice game.



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/13/2015 8:44:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

The board game Fatal Alliances (ADG...basically World in Flames WWI) has an awesome diplomacy feature. It should be looked at as an outline for this game's diplomacy. I highly recommend those interested in a diplomacy feature look into it.



I'll check it out. It has been YEARS since I played WiF but I used to love it. I'd love to see what a similar game for WWI would be like.



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/24/2015 7:53:58 PM)

Okay, so I've played this out in SP about 7-8 times since I posted this and I have some concerning news: not ONCE did Bukgaria join the CP.* Every single time the Bulgarian countdown counter turned red and stopped right where it was. Most of the time is said 20+, but sometimes 15+ and even 10+ once. This is silly. What concerns me more is that I found this happening in a MP game today as well. Not surprising give that it happens in SP, but even more of a problem since so many players place an ahistorical abundance of resources against the OE and without Bulgaria the Turks are toast. (Eg- without help from its allies there is no way for the OE to defend Sinai, Armenia and deal with any/all of landings in Mesopotamia/Black sea/Med.). Given the amount of time invested in mp games, this is a game breaker for me. It's tough enough that, for whatever reason, I cannot play the entente due to some software glitch (already tried and it doesn't work) but not being able to play out a proper CP game pretty much ends this game for me. is there a workaround? Any thoughts? Will there be another patch?




*- I should specify that I specifically made sure not to upgrade arty to have gas, the CP never declared war on a neutral nation, and I even experimented with both sinking and avoiding sinking enemy battle fleets to see if the dramatic NM swings were screwing up the game. I doubt I tested everything and may have overlooked something, but at this point I have no idea what it would be. More importantly, the Bulgarian entry into the war shouldn't be do delicate; they desperately wanted revenge on the Serbs as well as their other Balkan neighbors. Moreover, in the REAL war the Austrians were getting their collective asses handed to them by the Serbs (a bit of an overstatement, but the Austrians had been manhandled pretty good). In game terms this effectively means that Bulgaria chose to enter the war in a far less auspicious situation IRL than the conditions the game seems to be asking for.....



kirk23 -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/25/2015 8:25:00 AM)

I'm looking into all the scripts regarding Bulgaria activation, I will alter them where needed to ensure Bulgaria joins the war every time, within a month or 2 of when she joined in history, I mean its hard enough for the Central Powers, without the handicap off Bulgaria staying out the conflict.



kirk23 -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/25/2015 12:05:13 PM)

Greece in turmoil.

[image]local://upfiles/36378/C9580B1B05A446F196B6062E8178E105.jpg[/image]



kirk23 -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/25/2015 12:12:33 PM)

Sometimes you just have to be ruthless with the game scripts, I have finally put paid to the long standing problem of will Bulgaria join the war or won't she, well the answer is she will do from now on, no messing about, I have taken a scalpel to OttomanBulgariaAlliance event script, in fact I have removed this offending script completely, because to put it mildly it over complicated something that should be straight forward and simple, Bulgaria war activation, is now in line with all the other Major Countries in the game, in that they do in fact join the war.[:)]

[image]local://upfiles/36378/66CCC938358A4ABCB1975F9239969CB8.jpg[/image]



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/25/2015 1:33:13 PM)

Hi Kirk!

Completely agree with you![:)] A day or 2 ago took the below SS, which put me into dithers as to why Bulgaria went "RED" because CP declared war on Italy's "0" turn. There seemed to be so many in game excuses for Bulgaria "NOT" to go on the march to war seemed ridiculous.

good looking out, thanks, Bob


[image]local://upfiles/43885/DF791DBC16C34679AC3DA3BDE70B2C2F.jpg[/image]



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/27/2015 4:37:46 PM)

Kirk,

Here is another MP match, where Entente used poison gas first (a couple of turns ago), then Italy DOW on CP, guess what?: Bulgaria goes "RED"![&:] I intentionally did not DOW on Italy the previous turn just to not give Bulgaria an excuse not to go continue the "March to War", that proved fruitless.[:(] This I hope is part of your Bulgaria fix.[sm=terms.gif]

All the best, Bob[sm=sterb029.gif]


[image]local://upfiles/43885/051968E6BD9C4CAEA8DD920433296143.jpg[/image]



kirk23 -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (4/28/2015 2:01:50 AM)

The use of Gas for the first time, does not stop Bulgaria's march to war anymore, this is fixed. I'm play testing giving Bulgaria an activation boost when Turkey declares war, because Turkey and Bulgaria have a defence pact.



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (5/14/2015 6:36:53 AM)

Very nice, thank you! It has been like walking on eggshells in MP games trying to get Bulgaria into the war. I've had them freeze up (counter turns red and stops counting down) when AH had already knocked Serbia out of the war. This should make the Bulgarians pretty lusty to get involved.

As an aside, in one game the Greeks declared war on the CP without any sort of countdown. What would cause that? One day they were their normal resentful but neutral selves and the next they declared war. It really threw me and I'm trying to figure if this is a fluke. I didn't use gas

As always, thanks in advance!

EDIT: I almost forgot to ask when will these changes be available? Also, will this require currently running games to be restarted? thanks very much!



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (5/14/2015 5:25:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AEWHistory

Very nice, thank you! It has been like walking on eggshells in MP games trying to get Bulgaria into the war. I've had them freeze up (counter turns red and stops counting down) when AH had already knocked Serbia out of the war. This should make the Bulgarians pretty lusty to get involved.

As an aside, in one game the Greeks declared war on the CP without any sort of countdown. What would cause that? One day they were their normal resentful but neutral selves and the next they declared war. It really threw me and I'm trying to figure if this is a fluke. I didn't use gas

As always, thanks in advance!

EDIT: I almost forgot to ask when will these changes be available? Also, will this require currently running games to be restarted? thanks very much!


Got your PM and replied

Kirk is the "Clerk of the Works" on a lot of the proposed changes, much of is passed onto Johnny Bravo "Program Guru", hopefully the topic discussed above goes into the next patch (keep fingers crossed). Yes it is important, to find out if a "new" patch will in any way foul up an existing MP match. So don't jump into a new patch with a current match still active. However, do discuss with your opponent the value of a new patch over an existing match and perhaps discuss ending that match and starting fresh with a new patch. The only drawback from that is: if the existing match is close to a finish (meaning a lot of time has been invested) that one or the other, or both may want to finish the match before upgrading.[;)]



AEWHistory -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (5/15/2015 4:08:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: operating


quote:

ORIGINAL: AEWHistory

Very nice, thank you! It has been like walking on eggshells in MP games trying to get Bulgaria into the war. I've had them freeze up (counter turns red and stops counting down) when AH had already knocked Serbia out of the war. This should make the Bulgarians pretty lusty to get involved.

As an aside, in one game the Greeks declared war on the CP without any sort of countdown. What would cause that? One day they were their normal resentful but neutral selves and the next they declared war. It really threw me and I'm trying to figure if this is a fluke. I didn't use gas

As always, thanks in advance!

EDIT: I almost forgot to ask when will these changes be available? Also, will this require currently running games to be restarted? thanks very much!


Got your PM and replied

Kirk is the "Clerk of the Works" on a lot of the proposed changes, much of is passed onto Johnny Bravo "Program Guru", hopefully the topic discussed above goes into the next patch (keep fingers crossed). Yes it is important, to find out if a "new" patch will in any way foul up an existing MP match. So don't jump into a new patch with a current match still active. However, do discuss with your opponent the value of a new patch over an existing match and perhaps discuss ending that match and starting fresh with a new patch. The only drawback from that is: if the existing match is close to a finish (meaning a lot of time has been invested) that one or the other, or both may want to finish the match before upgrading.[;)]




Hey bob,

Okeedokee, good to know. Thanks very much. In the games you've played deep enough where Bulgarian entry (or lack thereof) becomes an issue, what have you done? One opponent I had offered to voluntarily declare war on Bulgaria ten turns after Italian entry. I'm holding off taking this person up on the offer in the hope I can "unstick" the Bulgarians, but this seems like a happy medium I suppose. The Bulgarians are just SOOO important to the CP, but I'm wondering what other people are doing? Just live with it? Use a drop dead date to bring the Bulgarians into the war?

One other question: did you ever encounter anything like that Greek situation like I described above, there wasn't any countdown. Is that a fluke or does that happen from time to time? Might I have done something to trigger Greek entry into the war?

Thanks!



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (5/15/2015 5:19:02 AM)

quote:

Hey bob,

Okeedokee, good to know. Thanks very much. In the games you've played deep enough where Bulgarian entry (or lack thereof) becomes an issue, what have you done? One opponent I had offered to voluntarily declare war on Bulgaria ten turns after Italian entry. I'm holding off taking this person up on the offer in the hope I can "unstick" the Bulgarians, but this seems like a happy medium I suppose. The Bulgarians are just SOOO important to the CP, but I'm wondering what other people are doing? Just live with it? Use a drop dead date to bring the Bulgarians into the war?

One other question: did you ever encounter anything like that Greek situation like I described above, there wasn't any countdown. Is that a fluke or does that happen from time to time? Might I have done something to trigger Greek entry into the war?

Thanks!


Aaron

In the current state of 1.62 Bulgaria is fickle (as shown in prior posts). It will go from "red" to "black", but I am not sure exactly why? usually because CP has been winning in some way or another, I'll try to read the lua data to make sense of it, often I do not understand the lua language, or rather it's interpretations, it can be a head scratcher. The problem is: It should never go red in the first place, much could be said in the same vain with Romania, Portugal, USA, and Greece (an enigma, going to take a look at the files on Greece too, I'm a little confused there also).

Bob



AdmiralSarek -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (5/20/2015 5:30:17 AM)

I can't find the LUA file, which one is the bulharia enters the way in?



AdmiralSarek -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (6/8/2015 10:59:36 AM)

OK, I found it, but it sounds like bulgaria will be changed to just enter the war every time. Which is the best idea, unless the Italy script gets changed so it goes red as well (if Serbia gets smashed).

As it is I could probably read the script again and figure out how to 'game' it to make sure they enter as the CP and don't as the entete, but that would not be good for this game.


Another change to consider would be stopping the ability to declare on a country that is about to join the war for a pre-emtive strike, this is a particularly good tactic agaisnt Italy and Romania, I havn't seen it agaisnt the ottomans yet.



Rongor -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (8/25/2015 1:06:21 PM)

I have to announce that Bulgaria froze to a red 15+ in my current MP game as CP in the exact moment a German garrison set foot into Italy while supporting AH in stabilizing the Alps front. I didn't use gas so far.
After reading the whole thread I am confused. Didn't Kirk say Bulgaria will enter in any case? But still it doesn't, not only in my game but also mentioned in other posts above, after the last patch...

So it is a bit unclear to me what to do now. Should I DoW Romania to please Bulgaria back to counting down? Should I accept Bulgaria won't join me anyway and so feel free to unleash the gas finally?



operating -> RE: What's the deal with Bulgaria? (8/25/2015 6:50:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I have to announce that Bulgaria froze to a red 15+ in my current MP game as CP in the exact moment a German garrison set foot into Italy while supporting AH in stabilizing the Alps front. I didn't use gas so far.
After reading the whole thread I am confused. Didn't Kirk say Bulgaria will enter in any case? But still it doesn't, not only in my game but also mentioned in other posts above, after the last patch...

So it is a bit unclear to me what to do now. Should I DoW Romania to please Bulgaria back to counting down? Should I accept Bulgaria won't join me anyway and so feel free to unleash the gas finally?


Unfortunately, what may have happened: Kirk makes up a list of proposed changes to the game (including how to do them) to the "owner" (LZ) of the game and his "programmer" (johnnybravo). But if LZ does not want to invest in programing time, or johnnybravo does not have the time to program, many of the proposed changes do not get entered into a patch. Take note, that these people are working on other new ventures and moving forward there, their interests are not here as much anymore, the shine has wore off for them. Personally, I can cannot see it that way, for the sales of CTGW seem to me to be still going up, especially since the release of 1.64...[&:]



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