new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (Full Version)

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DirtyFred -> new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/17/2015 7:10:42 PM)

[image]http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t522/evereachyu/153853c7odgod6s7egv86j_zps4e6bea68.jpg[/image]

During 2014 the PRC government commenced construction of a large artificial island to allow construction of an airstrip and seaport. A Hong-Kong based newspaper concludes that China has been at a distinct disadvantage compared with other claimants in the Spratly Islands as it is the only claimant that doesn't have an island hosting an airfield. Taiwan has Taiping Island (Itu Aba), the Philippines has Thitu (Pagasa) island, Malaysia has Swallow Reef (a reef on which it reclaimed land and built an airstrip) and, the article claims, Vietnam has Southwest Cay.

location of the reef base:

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cQ5Y8SCKJrU/U6h93SZEBRI/AAAAAAAAwU8/yE7V6A7dQkU/s1600/chinaislands.jpg[/image]

[image]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/200/media/images/82381000/png/_82381083_spratlys_subifierycross.png[/image]

history:

before may 2014

[image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sNPIOTwqP-I/VCXvAV7_RSI/AAAAAAAA2to/OiY2EYuhCBs/s1600/burgosbefore.jpg[/image]


after july 2014

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EaNH9lldJuw/VCXvCOTOHXI/AAAAAAAA2tw/3W9ywJlAhIY/s1600/burgosafter.jpg[/image]


november 2014

[image]http://www.janes.com/images/assets/083/46083/1569998_-_main.jpg[/image]


april 2nd 2015:

[image]http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-837476-galleryV9-yqhf.jpg[/image]


planned base CGI:

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EE7MAW3OF0s/VCXvOFFgH7I/AAAAAAAA2t4/Jj5K79kCjU8/s1600/airstripsafterCGI.jpg[/image]



China has had a presence at many of these reefs since the late 1980s, when it began building platforms ostensibly under the guise of "sea-level monitoring". Fiery Cross Reef is one of the more notable examples of this, but has since been developed into a PLA Navy garrison, complete with pier, greenhouses, and coastal artillery.

In the case of Johnson South Reef, China wrested the reef from Vietnamese control in 1988 in a skirmish that left up to 70 Vietnamese personnel dead. Since the images of reclamation at the reef were published in May 2014, plans showing a runway, hangars for fast jets, a port, wind turbines, and greenhouses have been widely circulated online. The plans were first announced in 2012 and then published by the No. 9 Design & Research Institute of China State Shipbuilding Corporation, although they were later taken down from the institute's website.

It is important to note that China is not alone in conducting land reclamation of the South China Sea islands it controls. Since capturing Southwest Cay from the Philippines in 1975, Vietnam has substantially altered the island, adding a harbour and other land features in the past 10 years. Taiwan, which controls Itu Aba (Taiping) island, has built an airstrip and is currently upgrading its naval facilities. The Philippines has also announced plans to upgrade an airport and pier on Thitu (Pagasa) island, although resources remain a major issue for Manila.

The main difference between these activities and China's is that they modified existing land masses, while Beijing is constructing islands out of reefs that for the most part were under water at high tide.



Mgellis -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/17/2015 8:45:34 PM)

Maybe one or more Artificial Island platforms should be added to the databases? They would be similar to the oil drilling platforms, but larger (15,000 DP?) and equipped with boat docks (to support amphibious landings and/or offshore refueling) and some air facilities (runway, at least one runway access point, ammo magazine, pads and hangers, etc.) I'm not sure exactly how big the one above is...it looks like about 8 fighter-sized aircraft but I suppose you could park a couple of larger aircraft on the pads, etc....not sure how big that runway is...2000 m? Of course, if you have a couple of different sizes, you could have different quantities of boats and aircraft.

And, of course, with anything that big it would be simple to customize it with whatever sensor arrays and weapons (SAMS, etc.) you want.

Anyway, it's just a thought.




Sardaukar -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/18/2015 12:20:29 PM)

Something related to China that might be moderately interesting:

http://www.oni.navy.mil/Intelligence_Community/china_media/posters/PLA_Navy_Identification_Guide.pdf



mikmykWS -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/19/2015 3:04:08 PM)

If you've been following US strategy talk lately much of it has been how to defend remote forward bases from a potential adversary with modern strike capabilities. You wonder if the same conversations are being had in China as the reduction of bases like this would seemingly occur pretty early in any big conflict. Even if you assume this is just planting the flag in the region they're pretty vulnerable to even B team powers like Malaysia, Indonesia or Vietnam.

Mike



Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/26/2015 4:12:20 PM)

I posted on this issue on the developers forum some time ago, and I strongly agree that either the base map should be updated to include the new land features or some kind of entry be added to the database. A database entry would probably be a better option for a number of reasons... For one thing, the military facilities in the SCS range from small wooden platforms, to concrete observation posts to the full artificial airfields. Focusing only on the new land features would give an incomplete picture as many other nations like Vietnam have fortified observation posts that may or may not qualify as land features.

Thus far I've found the best resource on the subject to be the "Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative" (I still can't post links, but google should bring you to their page) where they have a multimedia "Island Tracker" complete with maps and updated aerial imagery of every PRC Island outpost. According to their photographic analysis, the projected runway length on Fiery Cross Reef is, "approximately 3,110 meters" which "is likely large enough to land nearly any Chinese Aircraft".

Of course, the ambiguity posed by mapping these artificial land features might help explain their strategic value to the PRC in the first place. Their legal claim that the entire SCS falls within China's EEZ might have more weight now that they have something they can point to as sovereign territory. Obviously, the international community will reject this claim, but it adds another angle should they want to pursue it.

The structures also hint at PRC military strategy in the region. Such facilities would have little value in a full scale military confrontation with the U.S or even Vietnam (They might as well have built them as a giant bullseye if this was their purpose). They will only be useful in the grey area of low intensity, paramilitary operations for which a likely goal will be the establishment of a Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) akin to the current zone in the East China Sea. The new airfields will allow them to back up such declarations with real hardware however, and with the U.S likely to challenge (as they have in the ECS) this is where an escalation is most likely to occur.

As the South China Sea is a major area of interest for naval strategists and CMANO gamers alike, the outcome of any simulated engagement taking place from the present day onwards would be significantly different without the ability to model marine OPs and artificial island airstrips. I have been able to partially represent the OPs by arming large platforms but there is no way to build a 3,000 meter airstrip in the middle of the ocean at present that i am aware of. So I again strongly urge the devs to either add the new land features to the base map, or create a database entry for artificial land features.




Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/26/2015 4:29:36 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Something related to China that might be moderately interesting:




Great Poster! This reminds me of related database request that I also posted on the developers forum... China Coast Guard ships! Considering confrontations in both the SCS and ECS have involved vessels of the China Coast Guard, and not the PLA-N, such an entry would be highly relevant to a number of existing scenarios.

Until recently, it has been somewhat confusing and difficult to find information on ship specifications etc... because many vessels of the China Coast Guard once flew the flag of various agencies like "China Marine Surveillance" etc... until they were all merged into a unified CG just a few years ago.
Perhaps the linked document will provide enough specs for the devs to model a new entry?



orca -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/26/2015 7:39:15 PM)

There may be a work around. I've found it possible to place various facilities (ie runway, buildings, etc) at a random place on land. Then group these units. This group can then be moved anywhere, including to a location over water. Of course this isn't "realistic" but not sure if it matters if the intention is to simulate facilities on small islands/reefs. I haven't looked in detail as to whether these bases on water act any differently than bases over land but I assume it would be the same.



bradinggs -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/26/2015 8:30:01 PM)

Orca, you brilliant. Works fine from what I can see. I first copied/cloned it there and that gave me the error but pressing M and moving it as you said to the ocean, no problem at all. I launched a fighter and commanded an RTB and landed without issue as well. Was worried it might crash into the ocean.

Nice!



Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/27/2015 5:22:45 PM)

Yes, I have been using the "add on land, move to water" method often. Especially when I have a geolocated custom image overlay that doesn't quite align with the coastline on the base map. However, I can confirm at least one example where an OTH coastal radar only functioned once I moved it back to the land area on the base map. I don't know if the same goes for other land-based weapons...



Hongjian -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/28/2015 11:46:16 AM)

Some updates on the artificial islands.

Looks like China will want to build some WWII-styled Flak-bunkers on them as well. Positions for AAA (or even Type 730/LD-2000 land-based CIWS) and radars can already be seen.

[image]http://i62.tinypic.com/14klg93.jpg[/image]

Also, some more updated pictures of other islands.

[image]http://i62.tinypic.com/259lgqt.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i61.tinypic.com/wunwxt.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i61.tinypic.com/53lnro.jpg[/image]

base expansions on two already established islands:

[image]http://i58.tinypic.com/x1fs0o.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i60.tinypic.com/rwuhvk.jpg[/image]

On a related note, it looks like China is planning to build floating island bases as well... This would also make a nice DB entry, as these "islands" are mobile (10 knots max) and suppossedly pretty resistent against weapon damages due to their compartmentized and modular design, which also enables expansions and repairs by adding/switching out modules on the sea.

http://www.popsci.com/chinese-shipyard-looks-build-giant-floating-islands

[image]http://i62.tinypic.com/10ifhmp.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i62.tinypic.com/wkisgh.jpg[/image]




bradinggs -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (4/28/2015 12:49:47 PM)

Their speed of construction has always amazed me and now this displaying the ability to construct in remote areas like it's "just downtown" is just wow.



Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/11/2015 4:57:53 PM)

Even after taking stock of the fact that its a lot easier to be a megadeveloper when you don't have to deal with any oversight or opposition, one really does have to admire the sheer scale of their ambitions! Ironically, their current strategy resembles contemporary "Offset" thinking at the Pentagon wherein the goal is to leverage technologies where the U.S has a qualitative and quantitative edge. Whereas the U.S. is presumed to have a lead in Stealth, autonomous vehicles and C4 the last decade has seen the PRC mastering the construction of civilian container ports (first in Mainland China itself and later in places like Gwadar Pakistan and Sri Lanka), all the while reclaiming acreage in the millions from former rice paddies and floodplains. That the PLAN would see this as a strategic weapon is a great example of how they seem to view economic and military goals as part of the same grand strategy as opposed to the U.S. where such strategic coherance has been absent since the Cold War (note that 'coherance' doesn't necessarily equate to 'rational')...

Regarding the recent imagery, I was not aware of the construction taking place at Subi Reef, nor had I seen the closeup photo of the "Flak Tower"... Seeing it up close really drives home the scale of this construction! Furthermore, in addition to the gun/radar emplacements one can infer from the patchwork of steel rebar that these structures are clearly meant to withstand some kind of attack. Which begs the question... If the purpose of these bases is to facilitate low intensity operations why bother with such heavy, fixed fortifications? They could build the entire island out of kevlar and it would still serve as little more than target practice in any conventional conflict with the U.S. While land-based weapons certainly form part of the A2AD defense that has Washington so worried, the island structures lack all the features that make land-based A2AD systems such a potent threat... E.G Space for mobile weapons to maneauvour and/or suitable space for sheltering underground. Have there been any similar structures of comparable size and role built by the PRC that could provide some context?



ExNusquam -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/20/2015 10:07:57 PM)

CNN Actually did an interesting bit on this (with footage/audio from P-8s!): http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/south-china-sea-navy-flight/index.html



DirtyFred -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/21/2015 8:14:40 PM)

thanks for the video, ExNusquam!


impressive, how fast they build bases. According to UNCLOS (EEZs, lawof the sea), artificial islands do not afford the occupying nation territorial waters.

i was amazed about the history behind the claims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea


[image]local://upfiles/48585/4DD81EE49E7341FBA6C8786C3EF6F8EF.jpg[/image]



Rongor -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/26/2015 3:20:00 PM)

any idea how to put anything onto those areas in a CMANO scenery? As those grounds are under water, the editor refuses to accept any installations there...



thewood1 -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/26/2015 3:27:09 PM)

Did you read the work-around in the thread? Seems like it worked.



Rongor -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/26/2015 3:39:40 PM)

No, was too distracted by all those images. Thanks to your hint, I found the advice now.



Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/27/2015 1:22:38 AM)

I've been trying to build a new scenario that includes some of the new reef bases using the workaround suggested earlier. However, when you consider how many new base structures are currently in construction it gets real tedious, real quick when you have to manually drag each individual facilties db entry from a landmass to the correct location. Would anybody else be interested in helping me put together an .inst file that would reasonably represent the island facilities(per the thread entitled-"Import/Export Facilities DB: Get them here")? I could see making one "default" file (for smaller installations like Gaven Reef etc...)and another for islands that support airstrips like Fiery Cross and Subi Reef.

It could also be useful to put together a list of coordinates for the base locations. I've been able to create some custom overlays of the bases using the GMAP tool but I can only find a few of them as the Google Earth data seems to be outdated and BING Maps only shows one or two. Assuming the imagery is updated sometime in the future is it possible to share the custom overlay files on this forum?



orca -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/27/2015 3:59:53 AM)

Agree with Araner. I posted these island facilities on the import/export thread. Can't say it's "reasonable" but I gave it a try. but as I stated in that post it doesn't seem possible to save them in editor using import/export units and then load from file, presumably because they are over water. But I saved and posted a scenario with these facilities that I created.

Not sure the best way to facilitate making creating and modifying these islands given the difficulties in saving/importing them unless there was a change in the game engine to more easily allow this. An alternative would be to create these islands on any random land and then save to file. Then have a information available on the coordinates that users can move these to to after then are imported by users.



thewood1 -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/27/2015 10:23:14 AM)

Why can't you export them over land and move them after import.



Rongor -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/28/2015 12:42:58 AM)

Probably you can, but the concept of creating exports features positioning accuracy as a major advantage. The move-it-to-position-at-sea workaround fails to deliver this part.



thewood1 -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/28/2015 1:12:14 AM)

how does it fail?



mikmykWS -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (5/28/2015 1:33:57 AM)

For now just move the facilities on to land where you can find it. If it's .0000001 off nobody cares.Most are a dozen facilities at most so easy to update once we get around to updating land data. Keep in mind most major mapping data sets haven't done this yet either.

Thanks

Mike






Araner -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (7/9/2015 1:37:06 AM)

quote:

Keep in mind most major mapping data sets haven't done this yet either.


Fair enough... I can indeed confirm this to be the case as I've been trying to find updated imagery to use as a reference via custom overlay. All that said... Most of the major mapping companies don't exclusively specialize in the field of "Modern Air/Naval Operations", for which the South China Sea is a major potential flashpoint. So I don't think I'm the only one who would like to see how the script would play out with the new island structures...

In any case, much remains to be known about what the new bases will actually be used for. The airfields on Subi Reef and Fiery Cross are easy enough to imagine, but the true purpose of the five smaller bases is still somewhat unclear. Its probably safe to assume that they aren't building luxury resorts like Malaysia did with Swallow Reef, and the PLA admitted a primarily military function alongside "environmental research" and "weather monitoring".

The most recent images show the structures following a uniform configuration-

[image]http://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/thediplomat_2015-06-19_03-38-44.jpg[/image]

Thus far, the only confirmed weaponry has been a self-propelled howitzer but the presence of multiple hexagonal towers on all of the smaller islands suggest they will be housing radar, ELINT, COMINT, AAA, SAMs etc... Furthermore, the presence of concrete ramps leading to a hidden storage area is a familiar feature of inland facilities operated by the PLA Second Artillery where they house mobile missile launchers including the so-called "carrier killer" DF-21d.



Zaslon -> RE: new china base: Fiery cross reef (Pinyin Yǒngshǔ Jiāo) (7/10/2015 12:12:22 PM)

Interesting pictures. The foundation's design should be brilliant in order to maintain all the weight of these fortress without differential displacements.



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