RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (Full Version)

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rustysi -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/26/2015 8:44:45 PM)

Your map reminded me of the AH Third Reich game. A scale not compatible with a game like AE on the ground. This mainly due to the scale of the combat forces in the west. Just look at the abstraction Avalon Hill did and I think you'll get the picture. I don't really have a good alternate solution for you, but I'm afraid that if you attempt what you're contemplating you'll be sadly dissapointed.



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/27/2015 9:58:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Extending the map into other theaters creates another problem. Currently the database for units is fairly close to full and adding much more would be impossible. A war in Europe would also have to institute borders and neutrality that the current game system doesn't really handle.

As mentioned, supply and resources were also a different situation in Europe than in the Pacific. Germany was in a constant struggle for enough oil after the war with the USSR started, but for most other things, Germany could get what it needed either at home or near home (such as trading with Sweden). They did have some desperate shortages of some resources needed in limited quantities, but it was similar to the needs Japan had for some other limited quantity resources.

The siege of Britain was a situation of getting military material in, but also feeding the population too. I think the supply moving across the Atlantic would have to reflect the needs for feeding the civilian population as well as the military needs.

Some others have pointed out the hex scale is probably too small for Europe. Another issue is just about every single hex on the continent that isn't a mountain is a potential base. In North Africa and the steppes of the USSR, ad hoc airfields were set up just about anywhere needed. Planes would be ferried back to a field with more facilities for maintenance. The game engine currently can't do that. Damaged planes are always grounded.

I'm not saying that a European game would be impossible with this engine, but it would need some work.

A full world game would be interesting. It would probably take more than a day a turn to play, but I think you would have to break up the game data into theaters with units transferable between theater data bases. Then as you switch theaters, it loads up the data bases for that theater. To play with everything in one set of data bases would probably make everything way too slow.

Bill



Hey Bill,

Would it be better to just do mid size game like "The Battle for Normandy" where you can keep the hex distance the same as WITP ae.
or even 2 separate scenarios adding "Barbarossa" or most call "Case Blue". This way you are not doing the whole world map keeping to the system of WITP ae.

I brought this whole thing up and will be willing to help fund if and only if we can keep the same system idea as WITP ae, but if its going to turn into "War in the East" or War in the West" sytem by Gary Grigsby then its not for me since i already have those games and do not like.

Does what i suggest make sense and would it work with your Witp ae system, or am I speaking out of term?

If it can be done i'm ready to help make this happen now..:)





Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/27/2015 10:39:33 PM)

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/1D52EE6E454D4F198DFE9F3CFEAC9E59.jpg[/image]



rustysi -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/27/2015 11:43:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/1D52EE6E454D4F198DFE9F3CFEAC9E59.jpg[/image]


That's what I'm talkin' 'bout. It just doesn't fit.



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/27/2015 11:51:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/1D52EE6E454D4F198DFE9F3CFEAC9E59.jpg[/image]



Here is the map i'm suggesting which is from the boardgame "The Battle for Normandy" by GMT games which i'm currently playing now.

https://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/32838/battle-normandy/page/2

What would be the issue with this? If you can handle the pieces on Vassal or a boardgame why would it be so impossible on a witp ae system? The infantry counter can be the same as being used now. Which you can break off divisions from each counter.

Maybe there is some confusion. I'm looking to do a european theater like they did for the pacfic theater. Nothing is impossible in business i've learned. Where there is a will here is a way. In my business we find ways to make it happen.




rustysi -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 12:25:31 AM)

OK, listen. IMHO you're not going to be able to shoehorn the European Theater into the AE game engine and have a fun game. Its apples and oranges. AE is about naval warfare, the European Theater was only about naval combat on a somewhat intermittent schedule. Of course the Battle of the Atlantic being the exception, but that's another kettle of fish (pun intended). Look at the maps you're talking about, that's a much smaller scale and from what I can see the unit scale is at the battalion level. TBH it has the look of WitW/WitE, though on a different scale. That said I'm not quite sure what your objections are to that type of game. I would think that you need to flesh out your concept and see if what you want to do is feasible. I think you would need to start fresh and design from the ground up, but again I'm not 100% sure what you seek. Is it more of a naval flavor in an ETO game?




Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 12:48:46 AM)

yes. The scale in BfN is 1,270 YARDS/hex. I calculated that 60 BfN hexes would fit into a single Bfn hex. Imagine all the pieces in the BfN game crammed into the total number of hexes in BfN for all maps divided by 60. Then imagine using the current AE interface to interact with all of them. This does NOT sound like much fun to me.

If you want to take the WitP system and use it on the same scale as BfN, you have just as many issues. Ranges need to redone, number of ships increased (since the scale is smaller), etc. Plus 1 day turns in the ETO

I (and a lot of other people here) would MUCH rather have a WitP II versus something you are discussing. So if you really have the funds to support game development, I would suggest you use them in a way that you would have a huge amount of support for versus something that only would appeal to a few.

Now if you want to develop a game just for yourself to enjoy, then go for it. Who knows it may turn out better than what we think now. But I would have no interest in a WitP scale ETO game. I would be very interested in an even smaller scale WitP maybe 20 miles/hex [X(] Of course if you really wanted to help out 2by3 and Matrix, scale it down to 10 miles/hex and then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game [:D]



rustysi -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 1:29:18 AM)

quote:

then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game


Now we're talkin'.[sm=innocent0001.gif]




CaptBeefheart -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 1:46:20 AM)

I'd also like to humbly ask for a WITP-2 development. As one of the few weaknesses of WITP-AE in my mind is the CBI theater, meaning large-scale ground combat, I'm not sure adapting this engine for Europe would turn out well.

Still, it's your money, and I agree that where there is a will, there's a way. Good luck!

Cheers,
CC



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 1:52:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

yes. The scale in BfN is 1,270 YARDS/hex. I calculated that 60 BfN hexes would fit into a single Bfn hex. Imagine all the pieces in the BfN game crammed into the total number of hexes in BfN for all maps divided by 60. Then imagine using the current AE interface to interact with all of them. This does NOT sound like much fun to me.

If you want to take the WitP system and use it on the same scale as BfN, you have just as many issues. Ranges need to redone, number of ships increased (since the scale is smaller), etc. Plus 1 day turns in the ETO

I (and a lot of other people here) would MUCH rather have a WitP II versus something you are discussing. So if you really have the funds to support game development, I would suggest you use them in a way that you would have a huge amount of support for versus something that only would appeal to a few.

Now if you want to develop a game just for yourself to enjoy, then go for it. Who knows it may turn out better than what we think now. But I would have no interest in a WitP scale ETO game. I would be very interested in an even smaller scale WitP maybe 20 miles/hex [X(] Of course if you really wanted to help out 2by3 and Matrix, scale it down to 10 miles/hex and then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game [:D]



Fair enough....

Now can we get this done???...:)



wdolson -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 2:12:07 AM)

The European conflict was primarily a continental war with secondary naval campaigns. The Battle of the Atlantic was critical for the UK's survival, but it was fought with forces that are a sideshow in AE (subs and escorts). WitP/AE is primarily an air/naval game with secondary land campaigns. Burma was a major land campaign, but it was very slow and drawn out. It was fought with much smaller forces than the battles in the Pacific.

The AE game engine does not handle continental land combat very well. It does OK with islands, but gets wonky the larger the territory.

Any game that covers any part of Europe would have to address and rewrite the land combat engine. The hex scale would also need to be much smaller, something on the order of 5-10 miles per hex. The smaller hexes will also require some reworking of naval combat because larger gun ships will be able to shoot into the next hex.

Bill



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 3:22:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The European conflict was primarily a continental war with secondary naval campaigns. The Battle of the Atlantic was critical for the UK's survival, but it was fought with forces that are a sideshow in AE (subs and escorts). WitP/AE is primarily an air/naval game with secondary land campaigns. Burma was a major land campaign, but it was very slow and drawn out. It was fought with much smaller forces than the battles in the Pacific.

The AE game engine does not handle continental land combat very well. It does OK with islands, but gets wonky the larger the territory.

Any game that covers any part of Europe would have to address and rewrite the land combat engine. The hex scale would also need to be much smaller, something on the order of 5-10 miles per hex. The smaller hexes will also require some reworking of naval combat because larger gun ships will be able to shoot into the next hex.

Bill




Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks



Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 10:25:54 PM)

Since it is your development money funding it, you can get whatever you want [:D]

However, before you start pulling out your checkbook, there are a number of legal hurdles you have to go through. First you need to Matrix to greenlight the effort. You also need to get the legal entity Henderson Field to sign off as well. Depending on HF's agreement with Matrix/2by3, you may have to get permission from 2by3 as well.

Most likely to get all these various groups to allow this to go forward, a high level design document/business plan would need to be developed as all three entities have a vested interest to make sure you are not going to take their efforts and make a poc game. So putting your intentions down into a written document would go a long way to assure them that no one's reputation is going be ruined by your efforts.

Once you get agreement from all involved (in writing) that you have permission to develop a new version of WitP and use the existing database and source code as a basis, THEN you can start the process of getting a team together, etc. Of course as part of your design document you can include names of people that agreed to help along with what their role on the team will be. This can show you have support from the community. Even better if you can get some of the original AE team as part of you new group.

Just some suggestions to do before money is committed [:)]



Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/28/2015 10:26:36 PM)

Dup post



wdolson -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/29/2015 12:30:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks


There is something sort of magic about the WitP games (from Uncommon Valor through AE) that draws people in like few other games do. What you mention above is some of those factors that a new development would want to preserve. It's the same sort of calculus that movie studios do trying to figure out why one movie becomes a classic everyone talks about for decades and others are forgettable fluff. What are the elements that make a game a hit in the gaming world?

BTW, the original engine for AE did come from 2X3, Gary Grigsby's company. We heavily modified it, but the bones are still his.

Bill



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/29/2015 1:57:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks


There is something sort of magic about the WitP games (from Uncommon Valor through AE) that draws people in like few other games do. What you mention above is some of those factors that a new development would want to preserve. It's the same sort of calculus that movie studios do trying to figure out why one movie becomes a classic everyone talks about for decades and others are forgettable fluff. What are the elements that make a game a hit in the gaming world?

BTW, the original engine for AE did come from 2X3, Gary Grigsby's company. We heavily modified it, but the bones are still his.

Bill



Bill,

Can you put me in touch with all the powers at be to make this happen since you've worked on AE?

Thanks



wdolson -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/29/2015 3:06:16 AM)

I sent an e-mail through Matrix so we can discuss anything further offline.

Bill



Kull -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/29/2015 5:13:48 AM)

This is very interesting, and it would be nice to see something come of it. But I would caution against trying to do too much. A WitP AE for Europe will need to address a myriad of issues, and there are so many, it would likely kill the project before it got too far.

Better to focus on something small, such as a single theatre in which you could keep the WitP AE things that apply, and slowly develop the new ones at a smaller scale. Even this might be too large, but a Mediterranean-centered map at the intended smaller scale could retain many of the WitP AE features (supply to North Africa, Naval Task forces, Air patrols and combat over water, Convoys, etc) while offering smaller areas to focus on developing the new models for land combat (North African Desert Campaigns, Seaborne Invasions of islands and landmasses, hard slogging in Italy/Greece, etc). Cut the map off a few hexes West of Gibraltar, no further North than a few hexes into Southern France/Northern Italy, East to Crete/Suez (possibly further, but really, why?), and south just far enough to recreate the actual North African campaign.

The lessons learned could eventually be extrapolated to the vast expanses of the entire European continent. But don't try to bite that off at the start: "There be dragons"



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (4/30/2015 10:39:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I sent an e-mail through Matrix so we can discuss anything further offline.

Bill



Sent you my email.

Btw, it would be nice to work with a map like this area but modified a little

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/575302/battle-germany?size=large

Take from (West to East) France to Moscow and (North to South) Denmark or England to top of North Africa

Now the map that is part of Witp/ae, how much of that map would cover the map i just attached?

Bill, i'll speak to you by email for now on.

Thanks



Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/1/2015 3:25:43 PM)

You know you can easily do these map calculations yourself using google [:D]

Distance between Breast France to Moscow - 2,093 miles
Distance between Oslo Norway to Tripoli, Libya - 2,293 miles

Lets say you wanted a square map covering this area. So use 2.25K miles for the sides.

Using AE scale of 45 miles/hex gives you a 50 x 50 hex grid

On the AE map this area in Germany would fit in an area from the Northern top of the map to Colombo, Ceylon to Inching, China, and back to the Northern part of the map. Maybe around 1/10 of the total AE map size. Again, the scale between the ETO and PTO is too great for an AE game scale to work in the ETO.

If you really want an AE type system in the ETO, you HAVE to make the game scale a LOT smaller which would mean that the map of the PTO would be massively bigger.

Now if you did reduce the map scale of the game so the ETO is a much better game, you then could have the AE experience in the ETO. But until the ETO game scale is addressed, I cannot imagine wanting to play an ETO game using the AE system as is. Wayyy too many other ways to spend my time having fun [:)]



chemkid -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/1/2015 3:39:54 PM)

.



Kull -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/1/2015 4:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Now if you did reduce the map scale of the game so the ETO is a much better game, you then could have the AE experience in the ETO. But until the ETO game scale is addressed, I cannot imagine wanting to play an ETO game using the AE system as is. Wayyy too many other ways to spend my time having fun [:)]


I haven't heard anybody say it's good idea to use the AE map scale in the ETO. The question is, how many things would require a total re-write if you drop the new map scale down into the "5-10" mile range as Bill mentioned earlier? He mentions naval gunnery, and probably the same would apply to certain land artillery pieces - those would now have combat effects in neighboring hexes. But issues with range (say for aircraft) *seem* like a simple conversion. For example, an aircraft with a 4 hex range in AE would have 16 in AE-ETO.

Make no mistake - there's no implication that anything here is "easy" or "simple", but I am curious as to how much of the underlying engine would have to be re-written purely as a result of a change in scale. If the answer is, "a lot", then this is going to be a huge undertaking.



chemkid -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/1/2015 4:15:50 PM)

.



fcharton -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/1/2015 7:49:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
I haven't heard anybody say it's good idea to use the AE map scale in the ETO. The question is, how many things would require a total re-write if you drop the new map scale down into the "5-10" mile range as Bill mentioned earlier? He mentions naval gunnery, and probably the same would apply to certain land artillery pieces - those would now have combat effects in neighboring hexes. But issues with range (say for aircraft) *seem* like a simple conversion. For example, an aircraft with a 4 hex range in AE would have 16 in AE-ETO.


I think the main problem would be the way the map scale interacts with the turn/phase length. With 5 or 10 miles hexes, it becomes possible for neighbouring units to reinforce a battle, and combat cannot be a 'once per day, once per hex' affair anymore. Land movement changes too: as most units can move several hexes per day, you need rules for interception/reaction (similar to what AE has for naval units). I suspect the detection system changes a lot, too. And air missions can't probably "warp in" like they do now : just appearing over target, and all combat being resolved there.

In other words, I think there is a limit on the map scale for one day turns, and 12 hour phases, to be meaningful. Maybe the system can scale down, from 40 NM to 30 mile hexes, but 10 miles or less means a lot of changes.

Francois



Dili -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/3/2015 3:03:12 AM)

A Mediterranean scenario can be done at 20nm, i was with Blizzard and Cohimbra doing it but then there were doubts about how it would affect the whole combat system so it was stopped.

The unit supply system would need a revamp also if we want to recreate the fuel situation: units(air and land) have to consume fuel otherwise there would be no need to send fuel to North Africa.

The good thing about Mediterranean is that a game done there will work almost everywhere. The bad thing is that it is an undertaken never done in wargames - it is really a tri-service game : needs well developed air,naval, land system. Well four since it also needs spec ops(2 battleships, 1 heavy cruiser, more than 200 aircrafts sunk/destroyed by special forces.)

Commercially have the potential for a lot of countries and even some extensions like Spain, Turkey, East Africa.



darbycmcd -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/5/2015 1:18:02 PM)

You know, if you were open to moding/extending/updating existing frameworks, I wish someone would look at Combined Arms. It would need some work, it is 10 years old, and probably need to be upped in scale a notch or two, but it is WEGO. I think it could be extended to be a really interesting Euro Theater-wide game with some TLC.....



Numdydar -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/5/2015 11:13:29 PM)

Well if the people involved in ToAW could ever get their act together, that is a great system that at least could get the air and land part of a campaign going [:)]



claystone_MatrixForum -> RE: European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System??? (5/6/2015 2:02:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well if the people involved in ToAW could ever get their act together, that is a great system that at least could get the air and land part of a campaign going [:)]



Agree..fun game



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