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Paul Vebber -> Make OOB comments HERE (5/9/2000 9:40:00 AM)

Use this thread for OOB comments.



Supervisor -> (5/9/2000 9:52:00 AM)

I'm in the process of downloading right now--hell who isn't, right? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] At a whole 3% right now. Gonna let it go all night long. But I was wondering is Germany's secret weapon in there? The Kitchen Sink? If you don't know what that is, ask Wild Bill. There is a thread over at the CM forum discussing this. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] It's pretty funny actually.



troopie -> (5/9/2000 10:28:00 AM)

Just what Are the countries represented? And does anyone know of a good book about Brazil in WW2? Yes, they joined the Allies in 1942 and sent an expeditionary force to Italy. I know only two things about it. The soldiers complained constantly about the cold of the Italian winter, and they had to be frequently reminded that they COULD take prisoners. troopie



PR^Spanjab -> (5/9/2000 5:59:00 PM)

Hello! I downloaded over night, 6.5 hours on a 128k ISDN in sunny old England! I only had 10 minutes to have a quick nose and it all looks awesome! The query I have is regarding the entries in the encyclopaedia. Lots seemed to not have pictures with them, even units that I am sure had pictures in previous versions, ie British Firefly, Sherman II etc. Is it supposed to be like that or is there a prob with my installation? ThanX, really looking forward to my slow arsed modem friends getting the download for some e-mail action! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Keep it up! Spanjab



Paul Vebber -> (5/9/2000 6:34:00 PM)

No, some of the LBM's are missing. We will be cleaning up the OOBs over the next few weks (with the input of you folks:-) and will issue an OOB patch in a few weeks to fill in holes/correct bugs. This is one of the most ambitious SP OOB projects to date, and unfortunately became the long pole in the tent. THere will be improvement!!



PR^Spanjab -> (5/9/2000 7:05:00 PM)

That's cool then, can't wait for work to be over so I can get back and have a bash! I'll need to swat up a bit further on my tanks though, seems the German OOB is mainly reported in numbers, ie PzV's now instead of Panthers! Which one is the Konigstiger? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Keep up the good work, and I'm looking forward to you releasing some games we can pay for, this really feels like stealing to get something that has obviously taken so much time and effort for free! Spanjab



Guderian -> (5/9/2000 7:22:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by PR^Spanjab: That's cool then, can't wait for work to be over so I can get back and have a bash! I'll need to swat up a bit further on my tanks though, seems the German OOB is mainly reported in numbers, ie PzV's now instead of Panthers! Which one is the Konigstiger? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Keep up the good work, and I'm looking forward to you releasing some games we can pay for, this really feels like stealing to get something that has obviously taken so much time and effort for free! Spanjab
Panther - PzKpfW V Tiger - PzKpfW VI E KonigsTiger - PzKpfW VI B try this link, it helps A LOT: www.shadowsfolly.com



Desert Fox -> (5/10/2000 8:04:00 AM)

I started a campaign as the Germans and noticed there are a few odd things in their OOB. First is that they get no on-board artillery pieces (except mortars) until 1949. Another thing is that the captured T-34 is listed in the MISC section as an airborne AFV or something like that. After the first battle, I noticed that I could upgrade my mule team to a T-34. Another question I have is why are the units so much more expensive (or is it my imagination)? That's all I noticed so far.



Paul Vebber -> (5/10/2000 9:31:00 AM)

BIG onboard artillery would be much farther back, so unless you stumbled into the enemy rear, you won't find big artillery. ITs in 1949 so scenario designers can use them , but if you want big guns you after get them assigned form HQ. What is on the map is assumed to be what is organic to your Kampfgruppe. SPA is the other route for Big guns on board. Yes things generally cost more! Just the way it went. Point costs were one of the last things I got to so many minor coutries are a bit ragged. THe Major powers should be fairly consitant. I tried to make sure things cost the same accross teh countries for teh major countries anyway :-) THe unit class much of the time tells the computer what things to list in the same formation, for instance if you assign an infantry tank to a formation, all other infantry tank class units that don;'t have an X3 radio code will appear as well. So sometimes we "ran out" of unit classes and had to use some of the modern ones. We will try to rename them perhaps in a patch...



Desert Fox -> (5/10/2000 10:16:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: BIG onboard artillery would be much farther back, so unless you stumbled into the enemy rear, you won't find big artillery. ITs in 1949 so scenario designers can use them , but if you want big guns you after get them assigned form HQ. What is on the map is assumed to be what is organic to your Kampfgruppe. SPA is the other route for Big guns on board.
Oh, well, I used the OOB editor to put it on the map with my units. They make great rear guard weapons for marauding infantry, and in some cases, tanks. Besides that, I like having semi-infinite artillery missions, so I plant an ammo dump or truck next to the guns. Actually, though, none of that matters to me usually because I buy lots of armored cars at the beginning of a campaign to turn them into self-propelled artillery, among other things. I like to have a totally mechanized force.



kkrull -> (5/10/2000 10:24:00 AM)

Two questions: - Is it 'As Designed' that Polish infantry in '39 costs '7'? with 19 men? Major Powers (Germany, UK, Russia checked) are 17+. Engineers are 50% the cost of German engineers as well. - How are the computers points determined for the WW II compaign? Are they fixed, or dependent upon how many points the player choosed? Case in point: I played the WW-II campaign to start in Oct '39, one infantry company with attached recon (1 AC & Inf Recon sections), 1 art battery, 2 81mm batteries, 4 37mm AT-guns with wagons for transport, and some mines. (not close to max points.) First battle was defend. I was _very_ outnumbered - even more so than I would expect in a defend. And while I took out quite a few of the enemy, I would have been relieved of command.... BTW, is there any way to see the results if you don't play a game to the end? The game was scheduled to go 30+ turns.... So, I don't know exactly how outnumbered I was....
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Yes things generally cost more! Just the way it went. Point costs were one of the last things I got to so many minor coutries are a bit ragged. THe Major powers should be fairly consitant. I tried to make sure things cost the same accross teh countries for teh major countries anyway :-) THe unit class much of the time tells the computer what things to list in the same formation, for instance if you assign an infantry tank to a formation, all other infantry tank class units that don;'t have an X3 radio code will appear as well. So sometimes we "ran out" of unit classes and had to use some of the modern ones. We will try to rename them perhaps in a patch...



Paul Vebber -> (5/10/2000 10:26:00 AM)

Well - we were thinking about guys like you :-) We deliberately wanted to give an incentive to buy offboard arty. THe RUsskies got gyped though I see with their Offboard not getting upped like everyone else... The other thing we did for pbem was the "limit formations" It keeps an opponent form buying scads of scouts or snipers... Just back up your OOBs becasue if you mess with them in the OOB editor you won't be able to play a secure PBEM game...unsecure will work fine.



sven -> (5/10/2000 10:36:00 AM)

Hats off to Matrix and the SPWAW team. The download went at ten times the speed today. The team really outdid themselves and I wish I could buy you all a drink. Two questions. 1) Is the Canadian OOB lacking the sophistication exhibited by the British OOB and Anzac OOB in the use of Commando teams for a reason? 2) Is there any chance anyone has tried to work out an "authentic" OOB for any divisions? I am curious if it would be possible to hammer out historic divisions TO&E's and would be willing to assist if someone would direct me to a good source. Happily in Gratitude, Sven [This message has been edited by sven (edited 05-09-2000).]



Paul Vebber -> (5/10/2000 10:41:00 AM)

Likely a points bug...The Poles and other minors are so lousy morale wise that a singel mech platoon can take out whole companies if you do it right... DOn't try to destroy them - play herding cats and shoot them a few times each to get them retreating - then herd up so they go into the same hex. THen drive in with a tank and MG gun them and they will surrender in droves... THe points are not cast in stone. Infact anybody that wants to do any "corrections" to OOBs, let me know... Un fortunaately Jim Bello's editor is not upgraded to SP"WaW yet...We hope he will:-) meanwhile there is lots that can be done with the "basic" one but it gets time consuming... Let me know what you think general point spreads for things should be - it tough because the combat changes things quite a bit and its not obvious to me anyway how to rate things relatve to each other.



Paul Vebber -> (5/10/2000 10:45:00 AM)

As to the Canadians lacking things - it was simply a matter of running out of time... We welcome any info on historical formations, but the game is limited in what it can portray... My goal in the OOBs was to give enough of teh right "piesces" that histroical OOBs could be assembled for scenarios, but there is really no way to do individual divisions. If interest warrants I will hold a series of chats on using the OOB editor for those interested in OOB work...



sven -> (5/10/2000 11:28:00 AM)

I thank you for your quick response Paul. My main goal in trying to get proper TO&E's is attempting to recreate a few lesser known battles in scenarios. I did not mean to have my questions seem as a dig- I am truly grateful and was merely curious. regards, sven ------------------ Give all you can all you can give....



Guderian -> (5/10/2000 1:56:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Likely a points bug...The Poles and other minors are so lousy morale wise that a singel mech platoon can take out whole companies if you do it right... DOn't try to destroy them - play herding cats and shoot them a few times each to get them retreating - then herd up so they go into the same hex. THen drive in with a tank and MG gun them and they will surrender in droves... THe points are not cast in stone. Infact anybody that wants to do any "corrections" to OOBs, let me know... Un fortunaately Jim Bello's editor is not upgraded to SP"WaW yet...We hope he will:-) meanwhile there is lots that can be done with the "basic" one but it gets time consuming... Let me know what you think general point spreads for things should be - it tough because the combat changes things quite a bit and its not obvious to me anyway how to rate things relatve to each other.
Poles lousy ? AHEM. I think some history lessons are in order here. Does Kock ring a bell ? Falaise ? Monte Cassino ?



kkrull -> (5/10/2000 3:48:00 PM)

Likely a points bug...The Poles and other minors are so lousy morale wise that a singel mech platoon can take out whole companies if you do it right... DOn't try to destroy them - play herding cats and shoot them a few times each to get them retreating - then herd up so they go into the same hex. THen drive in with a tank and MG gun them and they will surrender in droves... - What does it take to rout in this game? Getting them pinned is easy, they may retreat at 50% casualties (but come back the next turn), and infantry routing does not seem that common. - With 19 person squad's it is tougher to take out enough to have effect. - Even if they retreat one turn, they are generally back the next. - with a single company under command, what is recommned: bunch up and defend one objective? Two? Object per platoon? - I don't have tanks... (trying something different) Let me know what you think general point spreads for things should be - it tough because the combat changes things quite a bit and its not obvious to me anyway how to rate things relatve to each other. Not based on anything but one game, but I think that Polish infantry should not be cheaper than the Russians, which is double the cost for half the men. And maybe more when they have double the men. Sure seemed like going against 6 - 1 or more odds in terms of numbers In other areas: - I was looking at the USMC, and they seem a bit limited: no Inf Recon units (Dec 41), and not the veriety of supporting units I would expect. - ANZAC, Dec 41, Armord Car section - there is an armored car that costs '0' (forget the name off hand.) Oh, and I do like the game... Snipers are fun. Command & Control may be more realistic, but it takes getting used to....



Greg -> (5/10/2000 7:47:00 PM)

From Paul Webber: > Likely a points bug...The Poles and other minors are so lousy morale wise > that a singel mech platoon can take out whole companies if you do it right... 'Xcuse me but may I ask why you did so? During the WW2 combat engagements between Polish and German soldiers there actually were no major differences in equipment or training (perhaps in 1940 campaign of France Poles where\significantly worse then their German oopponents). But fe in 1939 Polish soldiers tactically where at least equally trained (if not better) lacking some heavy weapons. So lousy morale accusations seem to me ahistorical. OTOH Germans where much superior to the Polish Army up from regimental level. So I see no point in presenting Poles as experience-points-givers :-( [As for another minor armies - I'm not so aware of their abilities or disadvantages.] Greg



Guderian -> (5/10/2000 8:40:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Greg: From Paul Webber: > Likely a points bug...The Poles and other minors are so lousy morale wise > that a singel mech platoon can take out whole companies if you do it right... 'Xcuse me but may I ask why you did so? During the WW2 combat engagements between Polish and German soldiers there actually were no major differences in equipment or training (perhaps in 1940 campaign of France Poles where\significantly worse then their German oopponents). But fe in 1939 Polish soldiers tactically where at least equally trained (if not better) lacking some heavy weapons. So lousy morale accusations seem to me ahistorical. OTOH Germans where much superior to the Polish Army up from regimental level. So I see no point in presenting Poles as experience-points-givers :-( [As for another minor armies - I'm not so aware of their abilities or disadvantages.] Greg
Milo widziec kogos od nas ;-)



Seth -> (5/20/2000 9:54:00 PM)

Fantastic job guys! It's everything you promised. I took a quick look through the unit encyclopedia, and was happy to see all the new stuff. I'm going to review it for suggestions tonight. One question first... I think you said that you didn't have time to put in all the unit pictures. I noticed that there were about 10-15 pictures of artillery pieces applied to almost all the guns I saw. Are they just placeholders?



Paul Vebber -> (5/20/2000 11:36:00 PM)

quote:

'Xcuse me but may I ask why you did so?
One can always find some cases where troops of any nation fought well and fought terribly. The game establishes averages for each year. "good countries" get high values and "bad" countries get low values. The poles in 39 in general got their butts handed to them, so they are rated "low". Doesn't mean locally many Polish units didn't fight better than the Germans! That is something you can do to your hearts content in the editor - or by turning country training off. IIRC Polish units in 44 are rated higher than they were in 39...I haven't seen the tables in a while. The probably look similar to the ones in SP3... I se if we can publish them. This is nothing we have done new, its the way things have been in the SP series all along.



Paul Vebber -> (5/20/2000 11:39:00 PM)

Pin/retreat/rout is a function of suppression and morale - the higher your suppression as a fraction of your morale, the more likely your staus will worse. It is tough to get guys to rout. Yes units can shoot at you if they are retreated and sometimes go from retreat to pinned.



Greg -> (5/21/2000 12:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: One can always find some cases where troops of any nation fought well and fought terribly. I see your point but that's not what I mean. I thought that 'lousy morale' factor has been set for Poles due to their weak tactical 1939 performance (SP series is a game where tactical training skills are most imoportant). In such case it would be a false statement, because Polish 1939 Army tactical training was indeed very good. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber: The game establishes averages for each year. "good countries" get high values and "bad" countries get low values. The poles in 39 in general got their butts handed to them, so they are rated "low".
Yes but they didn't got their butts kicked because of lacking of training or morale. Losing the war in 1939 was only effect of operational and strategical disfunction. And I thought these factors are irrelevant to tactical scale SPWaW. That is why I'm suprised.
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Doesn't mean locally many Polish units didn't fight better than the Germans! That is something you can do to your hearts content in the editor - or by turning country training off.
Sorry - I thought that tactical quality of troops presented in SPWaW will be close to historical. I do not want to switch training to 'off'. I'd prefer more accurate minor countries tactical troop characteristics.... ;-D
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: IIRC Polish units in 44 are rated higher than they were in 39...
That's more funny because in my personal opinion (driven from various books) in1944 Polish Army (even the West one) was at best only equal in matters of tactical training to 1939 one. Much better armored of course, but not much better as a fighting force.
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: I haven't seen the tables in a while. The probably look similar to the ones in SP3... I se if we can publish them.
I'd be appreciate this ;-D
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: This is nothing we have done new, its the way things have been in the SP series all along.
That explains a lot. I thought you've created units stats from scratch (unimaginable piece of work I think). But using data from SP is a logical solution. I suppose you do not going to insert any official unit changes in future modules? Pozdrawiam Greg



Paul Vebber -> (5/21/2000 1:28:00 AM)

I would argue it was very much a lack of training and morale...they were trained for a different war than the one that was thrust upon them, and once the operational mismatch was manifest, morale certainly suffered. Using your argument, every campaign would have to be evaluated for tactical abilities of the combatants...It was tough enough to get technical data remotely right, how on earth does one evealuate the "soft factors" for each Country (Army? Division? Regiment??) Over the course of the war. Many many Polish units outfought their German counterparts, but many many others did not. The net result was they were operational defeated, yet that has to have impact on the tactical battlefield. Operational Art involved use of momentum at the operational level to cause tactical collapse. How do you account for this at the tactical level - it certainly can't be ignored? We chose the existing system, which has good precedent in board gaming. Doesn't make it Right...just comfortable! If I ever work on a Tactical Game for Matrix, I would do it quite differently... SP and SP:WaW followed the lead of Squad Leader, lumping countries together in "Good, Medium, Poor" morale. Minor countries tend to be Poor...except in some scenarios where they are increased becasue of historical precendent. We follow teh same path. How about we give the Polish all Elite ratings, but only 5 ammo? That may be more "realistic" but hardly any fun to play... Games have to take historical situations and make them fun to be successful. Certain factors have to be abstracted. We had to work within a games framework - that assigned morale and experience averages based on year. Such things are matters of judgement and no consensus if likely to ever be reached on such a thing, since it is so abstract. THe alternative of doing such things "historically" as outlined above would be a life's work for someone and then STILL be argued. Be glad you get a bargain and only pay 7 points of a squad :-) (A bug that will be fixed btw...)



kkrull -> (5/11/2000 6:57:00 AM)

First off, thanks for taking the time to answer questions. Be glad you get a bargain and only pay 7 points of a squad :-) (A bug that will be fixed btw...) I won't be glad as the Germans.... Do you know what the value is supposed to be? Armor costs seemed reasonable - just a few of the infantry squads seemed a bit high, which I can easily change.... I was thinking half again the cost of Soviet, as there are twice the men. Also, I created a quick battle, German vs Poles in Oct' 39 to check unit info, and while the experience of the Poles was lower than the German, the Morale did not appear to be significantly lower.



Paul Vebber -> (5/11/2000 7:24:00 AM)

IT should be about double - infantry should be between 12 and 30 pts...7 is definatley too low! THe game is a lot different and teh points are hard to judge so let us know what you think should be changed. IT takes more playing than we had time to do to get it weighted right between armor/arty/infantry/ planes ...



3rd Recon -> (5/11/2000 8:16:00 AM)

Do you think Canadian ABN forces will be added? Also will the germans ever get Ski/Mtn troops for winter scenarios? thanks 3rd Recon



Desert Fox -> (5/11/2000 10:07:00 AM)

Here's something I just thought of. Shouldn't the German 88mm Flak also be able to fire indirect missions? If I recall correctly, it was used like that historically, as well as in anti tank and anti aircraft missions. I guess it might be a programming hurdle, but if its not, its something worth thinking about.



Supervisor -> (5/11/2000 11:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Desert Fox: Here's something I just thought of. Shouldn't the German 88mm Flak also be able to fire indirect missions? If I recall correctly, it was used like that historically, as well as in anti tank and anti aircraft missions. I guess it might be a programming hurdle, but if its not, its something worth thinking about.
The 88MM is an AA gun that can be used in the AT role. It can also be used for a direct fire infantry gun. It cannot be set as an offboard artillery as well. It would then lose its other abilities. ------------------ Grenadier SPWAW Beta Team



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