Help me understand game mechanic (Full Version)

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Blueinstinct -> Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 10:02:58 AM)

Hi, in my latest game i think i finally am able to undestand most of the games critical parts.
however there is one thing that that made me feel lost a little bit again.
The way frighetrs are distibuting resources to my planets.

I have a big empire (~15 planets, and alot of resources), i only have 2 spaceports.
Still 99% of my resources are being transported to my Homeworld and stockpiled there.

Caslon for example. I have 12 sources and arround 300K units stocked in my HW, but some of my planets, even the ones pretty close to my hw seem to lack it quite frequently, or have a very small ammount stored.
Those worlds in question have between 500M-1B population.

So most of my worlds with population below 1B have the 'lack of resources is hampering growth' problem in there population tab.

I noticed that worlds with bigger population seem to get better resource supply.
I have to admit that i only had 1 source of carbon fiber for the longest time but as described aboth, it happened with caslon alot.

So does anyone know the logic behind this, and if there is a way to improve the resource distribution?

greetings







VorteeX -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 10:20:28 AM)

Build even smallest version of starport on every colony. Each must have trade center included. Then you private saector start using every you colony same as Homeworld.



Siddham -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 11:30:53 AM)

seem to me you dont have enough spaceports
you have to put the infrastructure in place for the AI to use



Blueinstinct -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 11:39:42 AM)

ok, tnx for the advice, i didnt build more spaceports because i read a thread where someone said that spaceports will 'drain the lifeblood of your planets' by claiming all the resources by them selfs.
So i guess once u have enough of everything, the frain is no problem.

i didnt know that they help distribute resources.
how does that work, they just attract more frighters or will they have some sort of resource sharing with the planets aswell?

tnx for the tipps !!



Bingeling -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 1:40:29 PM)

The only need for building a new spaceport, is if you feel that the home spaceport is too far away for building ships or repairing them.

There is the advice to build a star base at each colony, but it will only help with things not relevant to your issue. They will help a bit with docking speed, and they give a bonus to the colony if they carry medical and recreational facilities. With DW Universe the docking capacity at colonies should be able to cope with traffic at anything but extreme scenarios.

As for colonies as fuel stops, they don't work well. Major spaceports do though, but not if you have major spaceports everywhere... A colony should be able to supply the freighters going there, keep in mind there is no need for a lot of freighters to visit a colony with no spaceport. A small fleet of 3-5 ships may be able to refuel once in a while.

As for fuel 12 sources for 15 colonies is not a lot. That is being shortish on fuel. I have the habit of building a fuel mine for every new colony, and make sure to build on every single source around my capital. In general I may find that I build on every source in my territory, it has the positive side effect of preventing pirates from settling in the system.

How to refuel your large fleets? The home spaceport may be in trouble if you build a lot of ships there. That is why having a lot of fuel sources nearby is important. If you are in war, and fighting with multiple fleets, it will run any spaceport dry. In general large fleets may be able to refuel (during war) at:

- Major medium/large spaceports, but only once in a while, and not many at once. Colonies that just lost its spaceport works just as fine.

- Gas mines may be able to refuel a fleet if your general fuel situation is good. It needs to be good because if it is not it won't have enough free fuel for a fleet to consider it "enough" due to freighters reserving for pickup.

- Resupply ships.

You may of course make some "stationary resupply ships" in the form of star bases/gas mines with extra docking ports on and no commerce center (and maybe some defenses).

You say you have a resource issue and two spaceports. Consider to scrap the second spaceport to avoid anything from being ordered there. You don't need "that other" spaceport to try stockpile more resources when there is a general shortage in the empire. You can of course also make sure that you at least don't build anything on a spaceport with a dodgy resource situation.

Also, is your home area safe for pirates? If not, make it. It will reduce the efficiency of your freighters by them getting killed/running away.

My guess of the core problem? You are expanding too fast, and/or not focusing enough on getting mines built. And if the AI runs the constructors, you have too few or them, or something eat your mines (enemies/pirates).





Blueinstinct -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 7:45:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
The only need for building a new spaceport, is if you feel that the home spaceport is too far away for building ships or repairing them.


Thats exactly the opposit of what the posters before you are suggesting


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
As for fuel 12 sources for 15 colonies is not a lot. That is being shortish on fuel.


I have ~300000 units of fuel both in caslon and hydrogen in my homeworld...



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
My guess of the core problem? You are expanding too fast, and/or not focusing enough on getting mines built. And if the AI runs the constructors, you have too few or them, or something eat your mines (enemies/pirates).


You are way off here, i started grabbing everything important manually from the begining, once i got the top priorities covered i set my CRships on auto till they had nothing left to do..

So eitehr you or the 2 posters above you are fundamentally wrong, one suggestiong not to built spaceports, the others suggesting to get very small ones with comerce center on every planet...

since i dont have spaceports atm i guess that i will find out if building them helps the issue.

tnx for the replys, i'l let ya know





Bingeling -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 8:13:01 PM)

Well, the two above me are wrong ;-) The old style of playing reported on this forum was "1 spaceport at every colony". The result was issues with shortages. Then someone (Shark7?) reported that going with one single spaceport got rid of all significant shortage issues. The thing is that every spaceport tries to reserve a certain store of resources for building. This makes the freighters busy shipping resources between spaceports. With a single one, every freighter is busy shipping resources to the capital only.

If you have every fuel source that you have access to built, and have fewer fuel mines than colonies, you seem very unlucky with the galaxy setup (or have a lot of poor quality colonies). I have had my fuel shortages, thus try to build a mine near every new colony, and then some more. If a region is short of fuel sources, and needs a military presence, I will try bring in a resupply ship, as it can mine alongside a gas mine. This keeps the gas mine fuel for the civilians to use, and anything short of 2-3 fleets waging war in the area will be well supplied by the resupply ship.

The drain on resources will of course always depend on how you play. For instance losing many ships will use more fuel and resources than losing few. Playing "calm" games allow for more time to build up resource stores, and idle ships (with energy collectors) neither burn fuel, nor need resources to have replacements built.

300k fuel at the capital is nice, it does not help those far away from the capital. And as I tried to explain, only "major spaceport" sites (and mines) will have decent fuel stores. And getting more major spaceports is an overall negative for your resource situation (but you can for sure handle a few as the empire matures).

If you have strategic shortages on the colonies, I would try to build some mines for those resources near where the shortages are. Hopefully some freighter can bring stuff directly from the nearby mine to the colony in need.

Also, use the ship list to get an idea about what the freighters are up to. Are they off to far off lands to get luxuries? Are they running long distances to find fuel? The miniature map, and sorting by mission or system can help in getting an hint of any issues that may be present.



Blueinstinct -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 8:30:03 PM)

tnx for the insight.
I have started to keep an eye on my frighters, it goes as follows:
Most of them are buisy shipping resources from all of my planets to the capital. Many of them are idle at my capital spaceport (once an enemy fleet came there and it looked like a bees nest got hit by a stone, frighters running off in all directions).

So i thought: why the hell arent they shipping needed resources FROM my capital TO my other worlds.

The reason why i keep bringing up fuel is that its one of the needed strategic res. for maximum growth rate.
Sorry if i made it sound like i had a fuel shortage, all my fleets have plenty.
I had only 1 source of carbon fiber for a long time so i get that it coused shortages, the thing is, caslon is needet too
and i have abdundant ammounts of it, its just not beeing distibuted alot. Thats why i keep bringing it up =)


So the best solution is to build more mines arround the new planets?
The thing is, Carbon fiber and chromium are on the list of growth rate needet resources and those 2 are hard to find.

anyways, tnx for the tipps, i start playing now and see if i can improve the situation







Bingeling -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 8:47:20 PM)

Chromium, carbon fiber, and polymer are the three "somewhat rare" strategics that you do need. Keeping an eye out for them is a good idea.

The freighters have a mind of their own, and obviously their management office thinks that it is more important to bring stuff to the capital spaceport, than to bring needed resources to the colonies.

And building more mines may not help much, but at least it gives you something to do that could help ;-)



Blueinstinct -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/25/2015 10:59:20 PM)

so it turns out after some more playing the frighters have taken care of the issue themselfs, it just took them a looong time.

but i can also confirm that building a spaceport will bring in available resources much earlier.

tnx for the help everyone



Spidey -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 8:42:48 AM)

What Binge said is the truth, in my experience. Yes, new colonies will be limited by ressource shortages for a while but the private sector will sort it out soon enough, assuming you have a sufficient stockpile of all the needed resources.

As an FYI, these are the resources required for colony growth. 

Steel		0,6
Lead		0,4
Polymer		0,3
Hydrogen	1
Caslon		1
Silicon		0,3
Carbon Fibre	0,3


The number indicates the importance. 1 means the colony needs quite a bit, just above 0 means the colony needs only minor amounts. Obviously this can be solved in a rather brutal fashion by building a space port and making the colony a magnet for strategic resources, but really, if you make sure you've got enough of everything to go around then all the colonies will get the resources they need, though obviously not enough to work as regular refueling points for your fleet.

What works for me, keeping shortages to an absolute minimum, is building maybe one space port per sector. One is plenty, even in a tight cluster full of colonies. Then I build a ridiculous number of mining stations and let the private sector work out the finer details, and as long as I have enough sources for everything, my colonies do not run out and my space ports and space port worlds can take on big construction orders without getting into trouble. My construction ships can build things without running out of resources and needing to wait for a freighter to deliver.

By the way, just to illustrate what happens if you spam space ports... Suppose you have 25 colonies, which is very easily obtainable by mid game and massively surpassed in late game in all but tiny galaxies. If that also means you have 25 space ports then an empire-wide stockpile of 300k hydrogen is split into 25 minor stockpiles of 12k. Now suppose you have your fleet of 20 ships that each carry 750 units of fuel. It needs 15k to fill the tanks, so even if the fleet isn't completely dry, it will certainly take a dramatic toll on whatever space port it drinks from. Now suppose you have just two space ports. The fleet would have to fly a bit longer, probably, but there'd be 150k units of fuel available. No shortage caused, before or after.

Obviously this example is simplified, because gas mining stations will carry a large part of your empire-wide stockpile, so the numbers available at space ports will realistically be even smaller.



Spidey -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 9:17:08 AM)

quote:

Thats exactly the opposit of what the posters before you are suggesting

It is. It's also the best approach in the long term. It is that simple. What the two first posters are suggesting will work well enough as long as resource requirements on your space ports are small and the number of competing spaceports is relatively low but try having 50 space ports and then throwing in an order for 30-40 new combat ships. You'll run out of resources easily. And this can become quite a dramatic problem if the civilian side decides to start a major retrofit wave and one space port is suddenly servicing 70 civilian retrofits.

quote:

I have ~300000 units of fuel both in caslon and hydrogen in my homeworld...

That's decent enough but it is generally not a good approach to think of pretty much anything in terms of "how big is my stockpile". It simply leads to you overestimating your economy and building up a resource drain that it isn't ready to support. And really, there's really never such a thing as having "too much" fuel, though I'll admit that stockpiles of well beyond a million fuel take a while to drain unless your reactor efficiency is terrible.

Anyway, my personal preference is to build gas mines on every source that I can reasonably expect to defend from pirates and if I have a colony in a system with a fuel source then putting a gas mine on that source is a fairly high priority. Having a one to one ratio between colonies and fuel sources is in no way excessive. And consider that if you design your gas mines with good storage and a lot of docking bays then fleets can refuel directly from the gas mines.

quote:

but i can also confirm that building a spaceport will bring in available resources much earlier.

Yup. But did you need those resources to be forced and what is going to happen when you've expanded beyond a pocket empire? Can you imagine having 100+ space ports and still having a significant stockpile at each? Do you think the AI can guess which ports you're thinking of as production centers and which space ports you just built to force AI priorities?



VorteeX -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 10:12:14 AM)

I'm reading what you guys write about 1 Space port is the best and can't imagine on what game difficult u guys play ? :)

First: Making space port on planet change a planet into trade hub, what's it's mean. Freghteirs bring here materials from nearest mining stations. Not to homeworld.
Second: Freghters distribute materials betwen trade hubs directly. So after some time evry trade hub will have evrything in numbers 30k+
Thirth: Alot strategic resources and order ships on planet make they GPD value grown alot faster so after short time u will have more then one home world profit planet.

How this can not work ?
First: Profit of private sector are close to zero. They stop build more freighter to service all those spaceports. So need decrase taxes (yes decrase, to stop sucking from private sector and get more bonus profit when private sector build ships in empire shipyards). Change private design to be cheaper but still effective. With 40 planets and 40 spaceports private sector should have around 1200 freighters.
Second: Incrase amount of extractors on mining stations and cargo space. 8 gas extractors + 50k cargo space make almost all time full tanks, 50k every type of fuel, in every gas mining station. And ready for transport for nearest trade hub (nearest mean need less fuel and do this faster)

And why i'm ask about lvl you guys play ? Becose on highest lvl AI send fleets on me always alot bigger then mine. So when war starts i'm always need to order (40 planets empire, 50 milion on account and 40 spaceports capable to build 10+ each) 500 ships in one shot. And this can't be done in ONE space station !! before enemy come. After war i'm simply trash them if any extra ships left :)

And my style of play is always fully manual, on highest difficult and tech costs. With 0.25 speed.




elite -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 10:24:09 AM)

Just an FYI

The maximum number of extractors required for gas and mining stations to produce the maximum yield is 4. Any more is simply a waste.



VorteeX -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 10:55:43 AM)

elite Do You ever try refuel 400 ships in one station ? :) Save like 5 min of game (at 0.25) is not a waste.



elite -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/26/2015 3:17:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VorteeX

..........


Second: Incrase amount of extractors on mining stations and cargo space. 8 gas extractors + 50k cargo space make almost all time full tanks, 50k every type of fuel, in every gas mining station. And ready for transport for nearest trade hub (nearest mean need less fuel and do this faster)

...........




This is what I was referring to., VorteeX stated 8 gas extractors, which is an unnecessary amount as 4 extractors will provide the maximum yield.



Spidey -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/27/2015 10:56:42 AM)

quote:

I'm reading what you guys write about 1 Space port is the best and can't imagine on what game difficult u guys play ? :)

Usually the hardest. Though I suppose I do give myself some advantages in starting with a system that isn't terrible, switching off respawning pirates, and setting research to expensive. Also, I really like being either Quameno or Gizurean. I guess I should try a harsh starting system and a mediocre race and see if that's more of a challenge.

That said, I don't think anyone is suggesting that you only build one space port the entire game but simply that you don't build one over each colony. One per sector is plenty. And yes, you can build 50 ships at large space ports if you don't have a gazilion drains on your resource stockpiles.

quote:

First: Making space port on planet change a planet into trade hub, what's it's mean. Freghteirs bring here materials from nearest mining stations. Not to homeworld.
Second: Freghters distribute materials betwen trade hubs directly. So after some time evry trade hub will have evrything in numbers 30k+
Thirth: Alot strategic resources and order ships on planet make they GPD value grown alot faster so after short time u will have more then one home world profit planet.

I've seen nothing that suggests that a colony with a space port grows faster than a colony with a star base that also has med and rec facilities. But you need a population of several billions to make taxation remotely worthwhile and that's going to take a while to achieve if the starting population is 30 mil. Now, I don't know what sort of time range your games last but mine are usually won after 20 years, the moment the victory conditions turn on. In that time range, new colonies simply do not have the time to grow into something decent.

Regarding your second point, 30k is nice for a number of things but 30k fuel is actally not very much. And what's the point of having stockpiles of 30k scattered at each of your 100+ colonies? Do you really want to go through each of them to build stuff or do you prefer building a space port with 50 construction yards and simply ordering everything in one go?

quote:

And why i'm ask about lvl you guys play ? Becose on highest lvl AI send fleets on me always alot bigger then mine.

There's an easy solution for that. Be more aggressive before the AI can catch up in terms of research. The AI will happily limit its early growth with heavy taxation whereas a smart player can get by with minimal taxation and growth boom for a rather significant early lead. And if you get warp drives five years before the AI then that's something that should translate into a bigger empire and a tech lead.

Also don't forget to take advantage of your neighbors. Are they Quameno? Awesome. Invade and take their research bonus. Are they Gizureans? Awesome. Invade and take their maintenance bonus. And so on, and so forth. This gives your race a new special ability and it gives you a second homeworld quality colony. The only issues I ever run into are pirates feasting on indies and occasionally having a ridiculous number of ships.

quote:

So when war starts i'm always need to order (40 planets empire, 50 milion on account and 40 spaceports capable to build 10+ each) 500 ships in one shot. And this can't be done in ONE space station !! before enemy come. After war i'm simply trash them if any extra ships left :)

That seems like a brutally inefficient way to go about it. Why would you build ships and then trash them? Why on Earth are you not using those 500 ships to wipe out whomever it is that dares to attack you?

quote:

And my style of play is always fully manual, on highest difficult and tech costs. With 0.25 speed.

I don't think I ever use quarter speed. But I probably do spend more time in pause mode than at normal speed. :-)



VorteeX -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/27/2015 1:43:04 PM)

quote:

Usually the hardest. Though I suppose I do give myself some advantages in starting with a system that isn't terrible, switching off respawning pirates, and setting research to expensive. Also, I really like being either Quameno or Gizurean. I guess I should try a harsh starting system and a mediocre race and see if that's more of a challenge.


Can both start in same system quality but on highest difficult AI always get same what player get x4. And pirates respawn always on, never found them chellenging.

quote:

I've seen nothing that suggests that a colony with a space port grows faster than a colony with a star base that also has med and rec facilities.


Loong time ago was bug with colony value grown, was always 10k no matter how big populated it was. I remeber only ordering ships in space port above planet incrase they value in time. And i'm almost sure it's still part of planet value grown equation.

quote:

... But you need a population of several billions to make taxation remotely worthwhile and that's going to take a while to achieve if the starting population is 30 mil. Now, I don't know what sort of time range your games last but mine are usually won after 20 years, the moment the victory conditions turn on. In that time range, new colonies simply do not have the time to grow into something decent.


I see there a reason of some argues here. My games is mostly a much loonger. Becose i'm always play with one wining condition "To have 80% of total galaxy population". Also harsh Xenofobic style, so not take other familys population to the empire. Simply make them slaves just after conquest and killing with massive ground forces till they shrink to the happy slaves population [sm=00000622.gif] exterminate with time when my oryginal population comes. Why ? Easy free population make game too easy.

quote:

Regarding your second point, 30k is nice for a number of things but 30k fuel is actally not very much. And what's the point of having stockpiles of 30k scattered at each of your 100+ colonies? Do you really want to go through each of them to build stuff or do you prefer building a space port with 50 construction yards and simply ordering everything in one go?


You must closly observe what happend with strategic resources in mines when home world are full 30k-50k depend on value. Simply nothing, private sector stop gather them from mines. So you not dividing you resources at all. Rather force private sector to suck mines more to cover empire demand. If you provide enough income to private sector to upkeep enough freighters. And incrase cargo and extractors in mines design then default.

quote:

There's an easy solution for that. Be more aggressive before the AI can catch up
...
Also don't forget to take advantage of your neighbors.
...
That seems like a brutally inefficient way to go about it. Why would you build ships and then trash them? Why on Earth are you not using those 500 ships to wipe out whomever it is that dares to attack you?


Here another diffrence of approach to the game. The fastest and most effective way to beat AI is simply send massive fleet to the capital world and put them on empty planet/sun . Then declare war on AI, he send evryone ship what he have to the capital world to clear you ships where they die one by one from concentrate firepower of you fleet. After simply bombard/invade all his planets and you win. Most effective and BORING :) Thats why i'm not do this. Always wait untill first AI fleet come to my system, it's a sign AI are ready for war and will be most chellenging. Provide also alot surprises, sometimes happend me to lose war. [:D]




Bingeling -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/27/2015 3:48:58 PM)

The main thing about pirates not respawning is supposed to be to shorten load/save times once the galaxy matures.



Blueinstinct -> RE: Help me understand game mechanic (4/27/2015 8:07:37 PM)

very interesting discussion, i now understand the game mechanic.
i can no make a decisioun based on how i want it to go down (build spaceports or not) rather than based on guessing.
thanks everyone for your input, it is very apreciated




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