RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (5/30/2015 1:45:29 PM)
2-8 October 1941 (16th week of the war) All eyes are on Moscow as the Germans have reached the outskirts of the western suburbs. There is no room left to retreat south of the capital and units in the area are ordered to defend their positions along the River Moskva to the last man. There is some breathing room to the north as Marshal Timoshenko’s Kalinin Front, formerly Reserve Front, holds ground northwest of Moscow for a distance of some 50-60 miles. It seems if the Germans are to make one last lunge at the capital before the Autumn rains, it will have to come primarily from the south. Accordingly, the strongest available units have been assigned to this sector. General Galitsky of Western Front’s 4th Army holds the key positions here. [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T16%20Moscow_zpspoag6ptr.jpg[/image]

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/1/2015 1:48:19 AM)
9-15 October 1941 (17th week of the war) We have halted the Germans at the gates of Moscow in the last days before the rasputitsa. There should now be a period of a few weeks where we can organize our defenses to challenge an enemy attempt to isolate the capital. Ground losses to date: Men: 2,674,124 KIA: 257,563 WIA: 548,760 POW: 1,867,801 Guns: 34,102 AFV: 14,247 SPA&AC: 4,666 Axis losses: 224,000 men 3,200 guns 1,800 tanks 400 SPGs and armor cars. [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t17%20Moscow_zpswtixglof.jpg[/image]

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/1/2015 1:58:50 AM)
16-22 October 1941 (18th week of the war) Pouring rain everywhere across the front. The enemy is for the moment paralyzed in the mud and unable or unwilling to launch any offensive action. Badly needed manpower replacements are allowing us to build our rifle divisions and brigades back up. The best estimates from our meteorologists is that this weather will continue for another three weeks or so. A most needed respite! The Armored Directorate of the Red Army has completed the proposal for the deployment of 24 tank brigades and/or divisions for a winter campaign. It is considered desirable to include the most experienced units that include formerly converted tank divisions. The tank units to be assigned as follows: 2nd Shock Army to be raised within six weeks (6) 3rd Shock Army to be raised within eight weeks (6) 4th Shock Army to be raised within eight weeks (6) To be all tank initially, later to include motorized formations the following year. Two combined arms armies to receive 3 brigades each. This will allow us to determine the usefulness of mixing formations of tank and infantry within the same army. One of the combined arms armies (20th /G. Zakharov) will be an established formation. The other will be the new 60th Army that is scheduled to form in four weeks. This will allow us to compare performance. I'm only deploying enough tank brigades to get some wins accumulated for future guards tank corps. The CVs aren't going to add much to the combat value and tank brigades advancing in blizzard eats more trucks that I will need down the line. By the time summer returns, all the brigades in the rear will be up to 50 experience.

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/2/2015 4:09:41 AM)
23-29 October 1941 (19th week of the war) Tension is palpable in Moscow as the people realize this relief is only temporary, and that once the temperatures drop sufficiently to allow the Germans to move again, they will no doubt be on the move. A series of high level meetings take place as considerations must be made as they relate to the resumption of the German offensive as the weather clears. The General Staff is asked by Comrade Stalin whether Moscow can be held. Our response is that if the Germans want it badly enough and do not attempt to cast too wide a net, then it is quite possible for them to surround the capital. Their ground forces lost only a quarter of a million men in the campaign thus far, and their tank forces seem to have suffered little ill effect in driving us back to the positions we hold now. The discussion then moved to a comparison of the Napoleonic campaign. It was mid-September when the French reached the Kremlin but were gone by this time in 1812 having only remained a month. If the Germans choose to stay and fight it out in November, they will be facing exposure to the most severe elements of winter. Further, if they only take our capital and destroy the troops in and immediately around the city, we will be in possession of sufficient forces to strike back and retake Moscow. Subsequently their occupation may be short-lived. Comrade Stalin expressed the view that should we lose Moscow, a recapture of the city within a few weeks would be vital to the survival of the USSR. An analysis of remaining industry which would potentially be lost in Moscow included arms and vehicle factories, a portion of future Yak-7A production, half our Pe-2R recon aircraft production, a third of our IL-4 and a quarter of our U-2VS production, and all T-40 light tank production. Voronezh sector [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t19%20Voronezh_zpsoq1net6e.jpg[/image] Southern area [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T19%20South_zpsf3o5wgha.jpg[/image]

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/2/2015 9:31:48 PM)
30 October-5 November 1941 (20th week of the war) Government organs are evacuating Moscow and establishing new offices in Kuybyshev. STAVKA headquarters is positioned 40 miles northeast of the capital. Signs of panic in some areas of the capital as some citizens who have the means to get out are doing so. On 4 November, Comrade Stalin asks when is the latest he can safely leave Moscow should the Germans make their push on the city. I reply 14 November is the best estimate. The following day, Comrade Stalin announces that he has decided to remain in the capital.

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/2/2015 9:42:56 PM)
6-12 November 1941 (21st week of the war) Comrade Stalin makes a stirring speech to the Soviet people on 7 November. A parade of Red Army units through Red Square followed. Marshal Budyonny who stood next to Stalin during the review was so moved by it all, I thought he might be ready to jump onto one of the tachanka machine-gun carts! State media captured the parade highlights on film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLFIfShr5Qc A new spirit is in the air. Security forces throughout Moscow restore order and the city evacuations are halted. The Red Army will defend their position to the utmost in the remaining weeks available for German offensive action. The rains have come to an end and the snow accompanied by sub-freezing temperatures have moved in. The Germans will no doubt be on the move within days. The only question remaining is where. At this critical time, General-Armii Meretskov of the Northwest Front has replaced General-Armii Pavlov as commander of the Western Front. There is little faith that Pavlov will hold back the Germans in front of Moscow. To defend the skies over Moscow, over 1,000 aircraft are assigned to Western Air Command. Comrade Stalin sends Marshal Budyonny to take over Northwest Front. STAVKA planning focuses on defending Moscow and failing a successful defense, organizing a counteroffensive once the weather becomes extreme. The Germans have very powerful forces outside the capital, so significant resources in the counteroffensive will be required. As part of this we are raising fresh cavalry divisions to augment our forces designated for the offensive. We expect to have 20 cavalry corps operational in 5 armies around the start of the campaign. North Caucasus Military District was renamed Caucasus Front Transcaucasus Military District was renamed Transcaucasus Front The Bureau for Armored Vehicles of the Industrial Council reports on T-34 tank production. We are producing 90 per week i](build limit 70 units/factory)[ at the following locations: Stalingrad Tractor Factory- 46 Gorky Factory N.92 – 22 Nizhny Tagil Krasnoye Sormovo Factory N.112 – 22 Nizhny Tagil Stalin Ural Tank Factory N.183 – 1 (58% damage) Moscow [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T21%20Moscow_zpsocixgrht.jpg[/image] Voronezh [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t21%20Voronezh_zpsuuxb1ecn.jpg[/image] Rostov [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T21%20Rostov_zpss8hnfj4a.jpg[/image] Front strength [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/SD3%20T21%20front%20strength_zpsb0bnifhe.jpg[/image] Air forces [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t21%20air%20forces_zpskt90avyh.jpg[/image]

loki100 -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/3/2015 10:22:58 AM)
a bit scary, but realistically Dave can only attack for a couple of turns (presume he will pull back before the winter offensive) so you should be safe?

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/4/2015 3:46:51 AM)
13-19 November 1941 (22nd week of the war) Cold weather has now arrived and the ground sufficiently hardened for the Germans to move again. Their first and most critical opportunity to march on Moscow appears to be squandered. The only significant attacks take place south of the Oka and gain the enemy 20-30 miles. Is it possible our enemy doesn’t have the stomach for a push on the greatest prize of the campaign? If they do not attack next week, the answer will be clear. Contingency planning must now be finalized for our winter counteroffensive that assumes Moscow remains in our possession. The responsibility for the defense of greater Moscow rests in the hands of three fine infantry commanders. North Moscow- 4th Army Kuzma Galitsky West Moscow 31st Army Fyodor Tolbukhin Moscow 20th Army Georgy Zakharov It grates on Marshal Kulik who commands the Moscow Military District that it is not his rifle divisions that protect the capital. Comrade Stalin is loyal to his closest friends, but he is not foolish. Report from General Polkovnik Kirponos on the readiness of Southwestern Front 5th Army- I Fedyuninsky. 7 div 4 bde. Not in a high state of readiness. 5 of 7 rifle divs exp < 25. 6th Army- M. Khozin 7 divs 3 bdes. 4 of 7 divs exp < 32 12th Army- V. Gordov 6 divs 5 bdes all rifle divs exp < 30 26th Army- F. Kostenko 7 divs 4 bdes div exp 5 30’s 2 20’s Heavy Industry (4) evacuated from Stalingrad 60th Army is activated under General-Maior Issa Pliev. This is the army to receive three tank brigades in addition to several infantry units and Pliev is believed to have the attributes of a good commander of mechanized troops. There is some concern over his administrative and infantry abilities but he will be given the benefit of the doubt for the moment. [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T22%20Moscow_zpszko2ha8l.jpg[/image]

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/4/2015 3:58:38 AM)
I think he is loading his guns for 42. Oka north the lines will not move until 44 or very late 43. His play ground is Oka south. Not sure where he copied that from, what CG you playing SD or 260?

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/4/2015 4:37:13 AM)
Neither. Standard Game.

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/4/2015 4:55:09 AM)
20-26 November 1941 (23rd week of the war) The Fascists by all accounts have given up any attempt to take Moscow by storm. Their attacks by three identified tank corps continue south of the Oka gaining roughly the same amount of terrain as in the previous week. Although I am not one to believe in miracles, this comes as close to one as could be possibly imagined. My only conclusion is the enemy figured on a difficult envelopment that might not provide a firm grip on their objective. Whatever the reason, we must now have as our winter aim the ejection of German forces from the outskirts of Moscow. Light to moderate snow is falling on much of the front and temperatures are now regularly below freezing. Our enemy must surely know that conditions will certainly deteriorate drastically over the next few weeks. In any case if they do not withdraw from the vicinity of Moscow, we will force the issue. Comrade Stalin takes a keen interest in every detail for offensive preparations, as the nightly operations briefings regularly run into the early morning hours at the Kremlin. The Volkhov Front under General-Leytenant Artemev is formed. Consists of 48th, 55th and 61st Armies and is positioned between Leningrad and Northwest Fronts. Lengthy conversation with Kirponos. His rife divisions were replenished with largely conscript forces over the last weeks. Consequently he believes his forces will be hard pressed to achieve significant gains in his sector under adverse weather conditions once our winter campaign is launched. I reply he has the second most amount of manpower of any Soviet Front with 540,00 men, 400 AFVs and almost 500 aircraft. His weaker army commanders have been relieved and replaced. We will also be releasing STAVKA 60th Army under Pliev to reinforce his right flank and Transcaucasus Front will send 44th Army with initially four mountain divisions to help with his left. Those divisions of the 44th will be doubled in January. He will also be supported by 1-2 cavalry armies and 1-2 Shock Armies containing select tank brigades as the campaign unfolds. Therefore he will be expected to accomplish all of his objectives, without fail. Any commander regardless of rank who does not press forward the attack will find himself in a penal battalion very quickly. To think that a month ago we faced the prospect of a desperate defense. Now all of our detailed planning is focused on offensive action. Our ground forces have risen to 5.58 million men against 3.66 million German. Artillery tubes 49,500 to their 36,200. Tanks 7,500 to their 5,150. Aircraft 7,800 against their 3,300. By all indications we are gaining force ratios in all categories. Air losses reported to date. Air combat 1,850 vs 550 Axis. Flak 430 vs 150 Axis. Operational 1,750 vs 550 Axis. Total 5,632 vs. 1,267. Discounting losses on the ground in the first week of war, losses adjust to 4,393 vs 1,267 a ratio of 3.47 to 1. Assorted screenshots [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t23%20OOB_zpszmkrdm1c.jpg[/image] [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20week%2023%20destroyed%20units_zps72igqced.jpg[/image] [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t23%20air%20losses_zpswxpezvm1.jpg[/image] [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t23%20ground%20losses_zps9vj1otnt.jpg[/image] [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t23%20production_zpsp6smkds9.jpg[/image]

HITMAN202 -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/6/2015 12:40:18 AM)
I haven't seen it done in any AAR's, but against the A-1 several times I have triggered 5 (five !!!) HQBUP's the last mud turn prior to '41 snow and it was ugly ... WWII bully beat down (great series U-Tube.) What do you think M60A ???? The Germans have the AP's to waste. I've seen a few Ruskies get caught with their pants down the first snow in '42. I think you were on the receiving end of one :) :)

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/6/2015 11:16:11 AM)
Good question. Given there are only 3 snow turns, I don't think most Axis players want to risk finding themselves overextended on the first blizzard turn. That's why you don't see it in AARs.

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/6/2015 12:01:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS Good question. Given there are only 3 snow turns, I don't think most Axis players want to risk finding themselves overextended on the first blizzard turn. That's why you don't see it in AARs. It is a mistake not to at least get a pocket in the south. I almost always get a 10-15 division pocket first turn. SHC has to buy those units back and that buys you space in the which you can trade for time and space and very easly regain come spring/summer.

loki100 -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/6/2015 12:41:54 PM)
think its a good idea to use those first two snow turns for a small attack. The Soviets are often still disorganised and are preparing for their offensive so can be off balance. You can also wreck some rail lines and that will tie up the (likely to be limited) rail repair assets and potentially slow the counterattack. Less sure about the 'buy back' argument. Those returning rifle divisions may be free from an admin pt of view but carry other costs and impose a load on your arms pts that you can't control. There are also going to be vulnerable to their NM being around 40 by the time of the summer battles. You can instead build a reserve army using rifle brigades (each cost 5 admin but that is less of a constraint overall), set their TOE at 50% and they don't absorb too many resources when you have your biggest problem (ie till the winter evacuation industry is back on stream), get them up to 100% by May and convert to divisions as you need them. They then enter the line with ok experience and 50 morale. If they convert from 100% TOE it only takes one turn for them to fill out as a pretty decent (cv of 3-4) rifle division while the returnees will be struggling around 1-2.

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/6/2015 12:53:06 PM)
10-15 divisions is a truck ( the more Tanks/MoT/Cav/Mech units the better) hit also right before winter and with good recon you can pocket some cav/tank or MT units. SHC needs rifle Corp to hang on to Moscow in 42 plus allot of other things so if GHC can pocket 100+ divisions in 42, its going to be a long while before The Red Steam Roller can get moving.

HITMAN202 -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 4:58:07 AM)
Looked back at a few recent AAR's. The quick end to Sapper-Callistrad was due to a 1st snow turn blitz.

Callistrid -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 8:47:29 AM)
Good german player can pocket a whole front, or even more on first winter turn. The player only need to concentrate all of his pz/mot units on south, or around Moscow, and the soviet side can resist against 36+ pz/mot plus xx infantry division. With mild winter, the soviet counterattack seems to be useless, after the firts winter turns.

HITMAN202 -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 3:05:40 PM)
I agree and it's not done enough. M60 is also correct in that the Germans can find themselves all discombobulated (our man of words Sillyflower should like that one) when blizzard (normal blizzard) hits. Callistrid your AAR versus Sapper was one of the best ever (that is in regards to the action/tension.) You played against of the all-time best WITE addicts (IMO the best combined German/Soviet player) and to say you had him on the ropes is putting it mildly. I appreciate your input on this forum.

M60A3TTS -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 3:13:59 PM)
27 November-3 December 1941 (24th week of the war) The Germans continue their attacks south of the Oka, as to demonstrate their faith in their own invulnerability. They will learn how wrong they are very soon. Temperatures are now down to 20 degrees below freezing at night. Predictions are as expected, that temperatures will fall much further next week. Soon the Germans will find themselves and their equipment frozen in the snow. We are only able to muster a single counterattack by Pliev’s 60th Army, forcing back the 18th Panzer Division of Hube’s 47th Tank Corps. Elsewhere our divisions are advancing in places where the Germans are giving ground. Cavalry elements are moving off to their attack positions. Quartermaster and Rear Area Services report 148,700 trucks in units which slightly exceeds current needs. 175,000 trucks in the army motor pools that require only 96,500. OOB [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20T24%20OOB_zpsng4lz12f.jpg[/image] Northern area [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t24%20north_zpsbywafjf5.jpg[/image] Voronezh Area [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t24%20Voronezh_zpsspxnsoxv.jpg[/image] Rostov area [image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/sd3%20t24%20south_zpsgaqkfsar.jpg[/image]

Callistrid -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 3:33:23 PM)
Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type. Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option. And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/7/2015 7:12:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Callistrid Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type. Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option. And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear. Problem is +1 is a very easy exploit and has zero to do with history. Yes bro its middle earth and last time I checked this game is about WWII. Not Gondor vs Mordor and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it. Leningrad stood, because Hitler did not want to commit to the attack. There was no Lvov pocket because Hitler did not choose to do it. Russia got slaughtered for 5 months, 1v1=2v1 has zip to do with history and has no place in a game based on historical possiblitys. Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA ——————German——————-Russian————Ratio 1941 3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1 4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1

hfarrish -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 3:01:21 AM)
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hfarrish -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 3:07:04 AM)
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hfarrish -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 3:07:43 AM)
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Flaviusx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 5:11:21 AM)
There were a number of successful counterattacks prior to October, actually. Army and even Front sized counterattacks. Most notably by Timoshenko against AGC when the latter stalled during mid summer, and also Vatutin's counterattack near Novgorod, which bought Leningrad several weeks.

Callistrid -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 8:55:57 AM)
Pelton, it's still unrealistic, when only one rail line can supply an entire german front, with all his motorized troops, to concentrate their spearhead. During the entire war, the german forces had a huge handcap supplying their troops via air, or by rail. The looses are real, but the WITE supply, and air rules don't gives us real sight. So pelton you can speak about the casulties, and wh we wish to "overpower" the soviets, but for example D-town, and Kharkov fall just on october/november, not on T04-06 like in WITE.

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 9:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hfarrish Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA ——————German——————-Russian————Ratio 1941 3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1 4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1 Can you please for once share where this "historical" info is coming from? They have this thing called google, put in Russian loses 1941 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union Kinda like Gandalf and his magic :)

Callistrid -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 9:25:27 AM)
Pelton, in other way, the fairy queen supply the german forces on the first 10-15 turn :)

Peltonx -> RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux (6/8/2015 9:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Callistrid Pelton, in other way, the fairy queen supply the german forces on the first 10-15 turn :) It is the rule set and .05 nerfs that some. In my games ( 1.08.3 )by end of 1941 we are at historical battle lines basicly so not to far off. You have a better game that sims EF? or just more negative?

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