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some guy -> (4/22/2003 10:42:03 PM)

The essay is done, but the thread lives on...

IMO, the overarching reason that the Germans could not have run is that [I]their entire system was based on a lie[/I]. Forget the other stuff, that's just details.

Some people touched on this... if the Nazis had not persecuted the Jews, or the Ukrainians, or attacked Russia... but then, they wouldn't have been Nazis, would they have? They attacked Russia because they [I]believed[/I] that the Russians [I]actually were[/I] inherently inferior. (And because, being Nazis, they were aggressive and imperialistic by nature.) They allowed themselves to be sucked into war with the USA because they [I]believed[/I] that the USA was weak because it was "half Judiazed, half Negrified" (Hitler) and that [I]that[/I] was that important truth, not the size of the US industrial and military potential.

But of course, all that was a lie. Almost everything they did was a mistake, because it was based on a false view of reality. If they hadn't made the mistakes they had made, they would have made other mistakes.

Beyond all that... there is interesting question of to what extent, if any, Hitler [I]wanted[/I] to be defeated. Naturally, we are talking about levels far below his conscious awareness. He was an emotionally sick person really, and on a certain level, life must have been unbearable to him. You could certainly not describe him as a "happy" person. He may or may not have "known" that he was evil... but on some deep level, there must have been a part of him that [I]did[/I] know that something was wrong. e3



davewolf -> (4/23/2003 5:39:41 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by some guy
[B]The essay is done, but the thread lives on...

IMO, the overarching reason that the Germans could not have run is that [I]their entire system was based on a lie[/I]. Forget the other stuff, that's just details.

Some people touched on this... if the Nazis had not persecuted the Jews, or the Ukrainians, or attacked Russia... but then, they wouldn't have been Nazis, would they have? They attacked Russia because they [I]believed[/I] that the Russians [I]actually were[/I] inherently inferior. (And because, being Nazis, they were aggressive and imperialistic by nature.) They allowed themselves to be sucked into war with the USA because they [I]believed[/I] that the USA was weak because it was "half Judiazed, half Negrified" (Hitler) and that [I]that[/I] was that important truth, not the size of the US industrial and military potential.

But of course, all that was a lie. Almost everything they did was a mistake, because it was based on a false view of reality. If they hadn't made the mistakes they had made, they would have made other mistakes.

Beyond all that... there is interesting question of to what extent, if any, Hitler [I]wanted[/I] to be defeated. Naturally, we are talking about levels far below his conscious awareness. He was an emotionally sick person really, and on a certain level, life must have been unbearable to him. You could certainly not describe him as a "happy" person. He may or may not have "known" that he was evil... but on some deep level, there must have been a part of him that [I]did[/I] know that something was wrong. e3 [/B][/QUOTE]
Good points, some guy.

Especially the last one is usually being undersetimatd IMO.

I think he was a potential suicide. Just consider that he actually basically [I]was[/I] succuessfull. He became the "Führer" of the Reich annexed Austria, Czechia, defeated Poland, Denmark, Norway and France in almost no time. But he didn't try to consolidate the Reich and secure its survival. My assumption is that he unconsciously didn't want to win.



SLAAKMAN -> (4/23/2003 11:27:50 PM)

Someguy- That is a very astute analysis you've made there. Unfortunately the insane dont know or most of the time even care about the difference between truth and falsehood. Hitlers case was that of a classic paretic ([url]www.kimel.net/hitman.html[/url]) and his disease decided the fate of many similar to Caligula's mania determined the outcome of his rule. Since mental conditions are so difficult to diagnose and to allow an insane person to assume positions of power is potentially catastrophic, perhaps we need a seperate committee to oversee the removal of lunatics around the world whenever they maneuver themselves into positions of authority. I shall call this new entitity; SPECTRE. (hehe):eek:
SLAAKMAN



jamo262 -> (4/24/2003 1:22:52 AM)

What about Ultra? The allies reading all the German codes.
The Germans going into Russia as oppressors not liberators lost them a lot of manpower as well.
How about an armed force and economy predicated upon winning a quick war by manouver finding its self forced into a war of attrition?
hope you find these useful



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (4/24/2003 3:54:51 AM)

Ultra is a tricky answer.

Yes the allies were able to read their messages, but they were also unable to exploit it routinely lest they tip their hand that they were.

Plus, by the time Ultra was able to actually give information of merit, Germany's future was already mostly in the bag as it were.



brucertx -> (4/24/2003 10:10:22 PM)

While there is no one determing factor, I think that a large one is production. Hitler never put the German economy on a full war time footing. If you look at production it's staggering.
While the US, UK, and USSR ramped up their their economies to full war footing, Germany, after the fall of France, actually reduced the production of war material.
Another item of note, women became a major factor in the Allied war economies. Germany never utilized this resource. While employment figures look high for German women, that statistic reflect jobs of the domestic variety.



Sniperdoc -> (4/25/2003 6:10:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by some guy
[B]IMO, the overarching reason that the Germans could not have run is that [I]their entire system was based on a lie[/I]. Forget the other stuff, that's just details.[/B]

If it's just details then why not explain the finer points of the system. It's apparant that you seem to know a lot about it, so why not humor the public and explain the system?

quote:

Some people touched on this... if the Nazis had not persecuted the Jews, or the Ukrainians, or attacked Russia... but then, they wouldn't have been Nazis, would they have?


Explain to me what defines a NAZI.

quote:

They attacked Russia because they [I]believed[/I] that the Russians [I]actually were[/I] inherently inferior. (And because, being Nazis, they were aggressive and imperialistic by nature.)


Oh yeah, I forgot, that's what the NAZI party was about imperialism... Where did you study again?

quote:

They allowed themselves to be sucked into war with the USA because they [I]believed[/I] that the USA was weak because it was "half Judiazed, half Negrified" (Hitler) and that [I]that[/I] was that important truth, not the size of the US industrial and military potential.


Right... sucked into the war with the US and how was it, that they allowed themselves to be "sucked" into the war? Do you even know how the US got involved and what the United State's stance on WW2 was?

quote:

But of course, all that was a lie. Almost everything they did was a mistake, because it was based on a false view of reality. If they hadn't made the mistakes they had made, they would have made other mistakes.


Woah... whats with all this "lies and deception" stuff...?

quote:

Beyond all that... there is interesting question of to what extent, if any, Hitler [I]wanted[/I] to be defeated. Naturally, we are talking about levels far below his conscious awareness. He was an emotionally sick person really, and on a certain level, life must have been unbearable to him. You could certainly not describe him as a "happy" person. He may or may not have "known" that he was evil... but on some deep level, there must have been a part of him that [I]did[/I] know that something was wrong.[/B][/QUOTE]

How many biographies of his have you read? "Wanted to be defeated..." LAFF!!!

Explain to me what effect Hitler had on the Weimar Republic, and what he accomplished through that effect. If you don't manage to explain this simple little detail in the birth of the NSDAP, step off your soap box and try to sound unintelligent elsewhere.



Belisarius -> (4/25/2003 4:08:01 PM)

Thanks, Sniperdoc. You saved me a lot of effort, there. :)

The reason Germany attacked the Soviet Union in 1941 is basically that conflict was not avoidable. There are a few reasons as to why the situation looked like it did. Keep in mind here that we're talking about two totalitarian, aggressive states with similar ambitions for primacy in Europe. If you are familiar with the policy concept of [I]realism[/I], you know what I'm talking about.

1) The Red Army was in disarray after Stalin's execution of officers in the 1930's. Stalin was well aware of this fact, the Red Army had no chance of defeating the Wehrmacht in the late '30s.

2) The Molotov-Ribbentrop act was not an effort to secure peace. It served both sides, as the Germans secured their back and supplies, while the Russians got an assurance not to be attacked for the while being.

3) So why didn't Russia attack Germany in 1940 while they were occupied in the west? Because Stalin thought the power situation was tri-polar in Europe! He counted on a war of attrition in the west between Germany and Britain-France. After the German army had exhausted itself, he meant to move the Red Army into central Europe. There was to be no exhaustion of Germany's war machine. As it turned out, the European power map only held two powers - Germany and the Soviet Union.

To say that Germany attacked Russia due to ideological reasoning that the Russians were inferior is to entirely overlook how states act on the international arena. :rolleyes:

The idologies of nazism did help though, in boosting morale in the Army as well as legitimizing the war to the people. (Hey, it's a "good" war....please state a regime that does not use this cause). And ofcourse, there's no denying that the nazi ideology was a major contribution to the atrocities in the east.



Sniperdoc -> (4/25/2003 9:50:15 PM)

;)

I just can't stand it when people talk about that era like they know everything and NAZIs are the anti-christ... etc etc... only an exceptional few understand that time period and are able to fathom the power of the word back in those days. Especially in Germany in the 1920s.

You have the majority of people, where all they watch is the documentaries about all the atrocities during that timeframe, and they don't GET/UNDERSTAND the cause/reasons things were done. By no means do I condone the atrocities of the upper echelon NAZI regime. But, I don't look badly upon the NAZI party. Those days are extremely hard for ANYONE to understand. Unless you were born in 1910, and lived through that era, you'll never understand completely what the German people had gone through, and what the rest of the European nations had to experience.

To be able to take a step back and understand why things like that happened, takes a broadminded person, not some of the backwater, living in their bunker waiting for WWIV, country folk, who think they are historians cause they watch the Discovery Channel and TLC.



SLAAKMAN -> (4/27/2003 1:27:23 AM)

SNIPERDOC SO IDIGNANTLY REMARKED;

"By no means do I condone the atrocities of the upper echelon NAZI regime. But, I don't look badly upon the NAZI party. Those days are extremely hard for ANYONE to understand. Unless you were born in 1910, and lived through that era, you'll never understand completely what the German people had gone through, and what the rest of the European nations had to experience."

DOC Youre warped out in the stratosphere somewhere. Someguys analysis is considerably accurate since it takes into account the cognitive dissonance people accept that comes with the self-deluding duplicity associated with half-truths and the Big Lie. The concept of the Nazi party was to combine racism (nationalism) and socialism (totalitarianism) into one unit. Its true that people who didnt live through World War 1 and the upheaval of the depression cant fully empathize with the desperation and frustration of those times but what is most alarming and unacceptable to Christian civilization is the fact that tyrranical forms of paganism similar to ancient Rome were fused right into the brainwashing system
of the inner circle (SS) of the Nazi party and gave them a mystical source to justify their extreme cruelty. The heinous hatrid, xenophobia and disdain for anyone not considered consistent with Aryan genetics was a distinctly Austrian/Bavarian atheist concept and an affront to German Christanity as a whole. It is true that people feared bolshevism more at the time and this gave momentum to the Nazi political campaign to win votes but in the end they were just as diabolical as the Bolsheviks. I have relatives that fought on both sides during the war and for so many americans to be soft on the Nazi party to me is an absolute outrage!! The fact that Hitler and his thugs allowed my beloved Germany to go to war with the west at a time when a monster like Joseph Stalin controlled the Russian empire is not acceptable and only further condemns the excuse that central european politics were too desperate to prevent it. I hope this helps people to understand.
SLAAK



Sniperdoc -> (4/27/2003 3:03:45 AM)

"By no means do I condone the atrocities of the upper echelon NAZI regime. But, I don't look badly upon the NAZI party."

So, if you don't understand this statement, what you're telling me is, forgive this simple analogy, "if a few apples on a tree is bad, that whole tree must be rotten too"?

The NAZI party did not start with an Aryanist movement. The NSDAP was created to remove the selfish nobles out of positions of power to make the German man worthy of some respect. The Common man did not have any money, the common man did not have any good jobs, the common man was basically treated like a peasant on the curb.

It was the NAZI party movement that took the Greatest Depression the world had ever seen, and turned it into one of the greatest successes. German industrial capacity rivalled the US's in the 1930s, BECAUSE Hitler made the common man have pride in his country and himself.

The fact that during the "LATER" years of the war, the atrocities against mankind happened, I won't deny, and won't condone or praise. But ANY nation, during any time of conquest, has committed attrocities. But because the WW2 Holocaust is the most recent and most documented event it has been "martyrized" by other nations that are themselves no better than Hitler and his henchmen...

To excuse the fact that the English, French, Spanish, and later the Americans killed almost twice as many Indians in the 1600's through the 1700's, is absurd... but no one ever mentions that, do they? They always try to justify that attrocity by saying, "Well we didn't know any better back then...". That is just rediculous.

No one ever mentions Stalin killing his own people in mass Genocides...

But to say that the NAZI regime was based on a lie, is a farce. I'm am not an anti-semitist by any means, I'm not racist, but what I'm about to say just kind of makes sense to me... Every nation in Europe and Eurasia was refusing the immigration of the Jewish people. Why? Because they would take valuable jobs from the indiginous population of that area. Because, today, every nation has problems with immigrants, the US with Cubans, Mexicans, Koreans, Japanese, Germans, etc etc etc... the list goes on, for the US. Back in the 1900s it happened to be the Jewish people that were chastised for their immigration into other nations. At the time that the Jews were immigrating to Germany, Hitler had through his younger years been observing the slow takeover of jobs by the Jews. During his years understood that if the German people couldn't amass to something decent, by having a good job, and contributing to Germany as a whole. But this was not just happening to Germany, it was starting to affect the surrounding nations as a whole, but "BECAUSE" of the holocaust, Germany will always be isolated in being the nation that didn't like the Jews. The same happened with the Irish population in early America, the same happened with the Hispanic population, the Japanese... etc.

BUT, of course Germany and the NAZI party is the bad guy. YES, the NAZIs were the ones "terminating" the "undiserables". (sickening terminology), but it wasn't EVERYONE that decided to terminate them... it was the upper echelon of the NAZI party that made this decision in the 1940s. WAAAY after the party had already been formed. The party wasn't based on extermination of races... it was based on the unification of Germany because of the Great Depression. The fact that because the German people were blinded by the great successes of the German folk as a whole, because this "great man" Hitler, pulled them out of the depression, would make you think differently.

We, the ones reading about these things in our vast amount of history books, can step back and without bias (using that losely) comment on the "devilish" manner with which Hitlers henchmen designed "the cleansing". But, I don't believe that if I was to have been that family living off of the dirt on the road, back in 1920, elevated to a medium income family with enough food on the table, if I would have been able to differenciate between Hitler between a good leader and a maniac. And I can never say that I would have been the one to speak against the NAZI leadership, when my Jewish neighbors, and the guy next-door that was putting down the NAZI party, disappeared overnight. I don't think that I would have risked mine or my whole families life.

But like I said earlier... People always judge others, but never themselves. NO one... is better than anyone else. Man is equal everywhere.

My point being, that the NAZI party as a whole, as a government system, was not bad, that it was the leadership running the party during the later years, was what made it bad.

Some of what you say SLAAK, has a lot of truth in it, but Someguy's analysis appears as if it's based on periodical readings, that was written by anti-german movements. To state that Hitler "wanted to lose" subconsciously is rediculous. To say that Germany believed that Russia was inferior was nothing but pure BS. He seems to have no historical knowledge of Germany of that timeperiod and as such cannot make any valid assertations on the subject. You on the other hand seem to have astute knowledge of the era (more than me it seems :)) and I'm willing to listen to your comments. Heck, you may even change my viewpoints, but again, I'm more open-minded than some folks that come straight out and start NAZI bashings.

I may not agree with your comment on NAZIism being a combination of racism and totalitarianism, because that was not the true intent of the party.



SLAAKMAN -> TOTALITARIANISM AND OTHER FUNGAL ORIGINS (4/27/2003 4:20:51 AM)

"The NAZI party did not start with an Aryanist movement. The NSDAP was created to remove the selfish nobles out of positions of power to make the German man worthy of some respect. The Common man did not have any money, the common man did not have any good jobs, the common man was basically treated like a peasant on the curb."

http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html

Naziism didnt do that, socialism did. Not that this or any other case is worthy of championing a cause for socialism since by implementing it you can throw freedom right into the gutter! Besides, the origin of the party did ultimately come from the radical narcicism of the elitist nobility. Hitler succeeded in the power struggle to seemingly "champion" the "Common Worker". This doesnt make him any more sincere and isnt grounds for any kind of admiration. Hitler was insane even before World War 1, is now being considered a brutal homosexual sodomite (http://www.hist.unt.edu/w2-19psp.htm) and wasnt consistent even with his own judgements. To address your analogy about the apple tree I agree with you which is why Im so outraged by the fact that the Nazis succeded in taking over Germany and
twisted the morality of good people into a vicious gang not unlike the Bolsheviks in Russia.

(FURTHER RANTS)

http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/i7403.html

Hitler and the Nazi hierarchy wanted revenge and were full of lust for world domination. They were fanatically xenophobic and despised any culture or religion that they considered to be a rival to their own arrogant quest for power. They utilized scapegoats like gypsies, jews, Christian opponenets and others to dupe the working class into complicity. They took control of the party whose origins came from elitist Austrian pseudo-philosophers like the Association of Blond Men in Vienna from the nineteenth century (As a Blond Christian I resent any association of Blond people with that of racisists like I hear being castigated in america every day by totalitarian Feminazi's) and the neurotic rants of Rosenberg, Nietsche. Using Goebbels rhetorical talent for mastering the Big Lie they conspired to convert Germans into racist madmen through the diabolical SA and persuaded them to leave the church and accept the totality of the state. Only 12% of the German people joined the Nazi party but over 70% obeyed their orders unquestioningly. The Big Lie is never dead in any culture and to be moral people have to find the strength to resist the stench of lies regardless of the circumstances and I hold the Nazi party to be as equally dispicable as the Bolshviks that they were reacting against. Then to reiterate my earlier point that to allow germany to go to war against the west and the villification followed by extermination of so-called "undesirables" is unforgivable and will forever condemn the Nazi party to the Hellish pit where it belongs; OBLIVION! As for the Bolsheviks....they can follow the Feminists into Hell too! :mad:
SLAAKMAN



Sniperdoc -> (4/27/2003 4:42:52 AM)

:) You might convince me yet... :p

I might have to do some more studies... but you make valid points... but my standing on someguy's post stands... it still appears to me like he didn't completely understand what he posting. It looks to me that he just jumps onto the NAZI bashing bandwagon with no substantial thoughts to back it up.



SLAAKMAN -> (4/27/2003 5:02:01 AM)

DOC-

Hmmm, that might seem like the first impression of his statements but it seems more like a summary of the situation than bashing to me. Youre right about the fact that there is always two sides to every coin no matter what and an objective description is always worth more than a biased one. I guess I support his summarizing simply for one reason and that is as a Christian we resent the Nazis anti-Christian assertions relating to God and morality. They assert that man is his own God and that morality is only relevant to power, therefore those who can wield power most efficiently deserve to dominate and those who cant resist are irrelevant. This is a form of blasphemy to Christians and we believe that this philosophy will result in terrible consequences for those who embrace it. (Blasphemy is the belief that God is irrelevant to human affairs and therefore doesnt exist. This is also defined as the unforgivable sin.) Anyway how about a game of Starcraft;Broodwars or Close Combat er sumthin'?
SLAAK:D

PS-Dont worry. All humanoids will eventually convert to SLAAKNARCHISM anyway! ;)



BrubakerII -> More on Ultra (4/27/2003 7:00:12 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Ultra is a tricky answer.

Yes the allies were able to read their messages, but they were also unable to exploit it routinely lest they tip their hand that they were.

Plus, by the time Ultra was able to actually give information of merit, Germany's future was already mostly in the bag as it were. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Les

You know I think there is more to the Ultra issue as well. I am very likely alone in these thoughts but personally I think Ultra would have given the Allies information that was just not conducive to some of the political outcomes desired which would have posed some interesting moral problems for 'our' leaders - many I am sure we will never know of.

For instance using Ultra intercepts, forms of human intel and high altitude recon photography I absolutely refuse to believe that we as Allies did not know the near full extent of what was happening in Central Europe regards work/death camps. It is easy now to argue that the Allies did not have the capacity to interdict earlier etc etc but I am certain the ttruth lies colser to the fact that (for instance) Churchill and Stalin were probably both happy to look the other way while this event took place, that the Allied military commanders were aware that Germany was wasting vital resources on this project which then assisted the Allied military effort (by not freeing up those resources), and other such moral dilemmas.

As I said I am not condemning 'us' but I think it would make an extremely interesting study on exactly what information was available and how it was (or wasn't) used.

Brubaker



Boar -> (4/28/2003 4:46:08 AM)

BrubakerII? We're still missing the original Brubaker every where else ;)

Hope you're doing ok on your new road.



BrubakerII -> Doppelgangers (4/28/2003 5:42:07 AM)

Hi Boar - Nice to see you.

No new road I just forgot the password here for the Brubaker singular :( I still troll around some the old forums from time to time but don't post much. The whole Islam/war/US stuff was just too devisive for me and caused me to re-evaluate my feelings for many old aquaintances. On top of that vs1/.0 of the game was rank ;)

As Joe may have said I am doing a little stuff here at Matrix for Ross and generally speaking find the forums here not only more informative (wargame-wise) but also the participants more level headed (for the most part :D ).

Perhaps you are right perhaps it is a new road? :eek: One thing for sure, I enjoy having more time to play games now. America's Army, Sim City 4, Korsun Pocket testing, Ravenshield etc.

Thanks for the interest.

Brubaker



SLAAKMAN -> (4/29/2003 12:40:11 AM)

BOAR OL BUDDY HOWVE YOU BEEN?!! I WANT TO SEE YOUR MUG UP ON THE ZONE AGAIN FOR SOME GLORIOUS BERLIN PETMAP ACTION!!! HEHE
SLAAK



lefty_nutter -> (4/29/2003 9:04:37 AM)

I think Narvik was a decisive event in the war. It formed Hitler's psyche and made the Ostheer fight with one hand behind its back and one leg hobbled in the war with Russia.



Trigger1027 -> Results (5/10/2003 9:49:48 PM)

I have received the mark for my essay.
My overall mark was 75%. This was because the footnotes were done poorly and some small things.
It was a good essay while it lasted, thanks to everyone who suggested ideas, though I could not use them all.
:) Thanks again :)



brucertx -> (5/10/2003 9:52:50 PM)

Congratulations! Ahhhh, those pesky footnotes and source cites!
Bruce



Boar -> Re: More on Ultra (6/11/2003 2:22:51 AM)

Sorry to drag up an extremely old topic, but ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrubakerII
Hi Les

You know I think there is more to the Ultra issue as well. I am very likely alone in these thoughts but personally I think Ultra would have given the Allies information that was just not conducive to some of the political outcomes desired which would have posed some interesting moral problems for 'our' leaders - many I am sure we will never know of.


I'm just now reading Toland's The Rising Sun (the decline and fall of the Japanese Empire) in which Hull and others were often decieved by intercepted messages from the Japanese that the Japanese were NOT interested in peace. I don't agree with the rest of your statements below, but what else is new? ;) Toland spends a lot of time, though, going through the communications errors on both sides that made the eventual clash between the Japanese and the U.S. occur. Not to at all condone Japanese aggression against China, but if Japan HAD been able to control China, I wonder if "Red" China would have been allowed to develop, since Japan was ardently anti-communist (as was Hitler, actually).

quote:


For instance using Ultra intercepts, forms of human intel and high altitude recon photography I absolutely refuse to believe that we as Allies did not know the near full extent of what was happening in Central Europe regards work/death camps. It is easy now to argue that the Allies did not have the capacity to interdict earlier etc etc but I am certain the ttruth lies colser to the fact that (for instance) Churchill and Stalin were probably both happy to look the other way while this event took place, that the Allied military commanders were aware that Germany was wasting vital resources on this project which then assisted the Allied military effort (by not freeing up those resources), and other such moral dilemmas.

As I said I am not condemning 'us' but I think it would make an extremely interesting study on exactly what information was available and how it was (or wasn't) used.

Brubaker [/QUOTE]



Fred98 -> (6/11/2003 5:51:41 AM)

The notorious meeting discussing the Final Solution took place in 1942.

In 1943, the phrase “death camps” had not been heard of.

The concept of a death camp could not be imagined.

When inmates were transported by train, the communications would have used the word “workers” transported to “factories”.

High level recon would have been looking for military targets.

If they spotted a “death camp” surely it would have been identified as a factory or even a prison for political prisoners. The phrase “death camp” had not been invented.

Why would the Germans need a camp for political prisoners? And the answer is that they are a cultured and civilised people. They are not going to murder women and children.

The truth only came out later.

I note that in Gulf War 2, Saddam murdered hundreds in the final weeks before the war and they are buried in a mass grave. With all the modern technology we had no idea.



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