Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (Full Version)

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mktours -> Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 2:06:18 PM)

Just checked the new patch, and discovered that Zhukov seemed to be forbidden from taking charge of an army.
Is this the truth in the new patch? If so, why?
Other GA are eligible to be named the commander of an army.
I think that Wite is using the leader rating system to dictate the combat, in History, when Zhukov make the famous counter-attack to save Leningrad, and his role in the Moscow campaign, he is a very active leader, overseeing many detail decision of combat.
to reflect that effect in the wite game system, he must be in charge of a army to get that effect.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 2:22:34 PM)

He was a Front commander in all those situations, though.



mktours -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 2:40:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

He was a Front commander in all those situations, though.

That was true, but in the wite game system, what he actually did should be translated into leading an army.
Especially in the 1941 Leningrad counter-attack, he was in deed just using several divisions. what he actually did in that case was the work of an army leader.

Also, in Moscow campaign, he overseeing many detail combat, which translated into wite game system, should be a 9 infantry rating in the first leader check.

There is a trade off between making Zhukov a Front leader and an army leader, if given the possibility, I would prefer an army. That is the best way to reflect Zhukov's role in both the Lennigrad campaign and Moscow campaign.
Being a Front leader could not reflect the real history effect in the wite game system.



mktours -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 2:51:12 PM)

The same could also be said about Model, we know later he became a leader of Army Group, but what he did is in deed often overriding his army leader's decision.
And translated into wite game system, is doing a 9 infantry leader check in the first check.
That is what the wite game system works, nobody would make Model a army group leader in the wite game. He must be a army leader at most.



mktours -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 2:59:04 PM)

In deed, the leader rating system, which dictate the combat in the wite game, is obvious not a perfect representation of reality, so people should be allowed to make some adjustment to get it more close to historical effect.

The good example is Zhukov, Model, Gederian, these leaders have an exceptional effect which could not be represented by the normal leader rating system. Having Zhukov as a Front leader have not effect to make a hard stand, the same culd be said to having Model as a Army Group leader.



morvael -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 3:33:41 PM)

So perhaps leaders should be allowed to take any post, even if below their "desired" command level by many steps?



M60A3TTS -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 3:47:04 PM)

I think Zhukov would have been insulted to have been offered command of an army. And Stalin wouldn't have put him that far down the chain of command. Kirill Meretskov was the only General-Armii at the opening of Barbarossa commanding an army. His association with the debacle of the Finnish Winter War didn't do his reputation any favors.

If you really want to go all out defending Leningrad, why not give Zhukov the Front command, and put Konev, Vatutin, Rokossovsky and/or Tolbukhin as army commanders under him?



mktours -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 11:42:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Movael,
So perhaps leaders should be allowed to take any post, even if below their "desired" command level by many steps?

The matter is that the wite game system is not a perfect representation of history effect, so some adjustment should be allowed to the players. The more obvious example is Model, would any capable player be willing to put him in Army Group command?
In the game, the player take over the strategy level command, so Zhukov could afford to go the lower level. In Moscow campaign, Zhukov fetched anything he could have into direct action, a brigade, a regiment, whatever he got in the highest crisis, it is his very active command that save Moscow. The very exceptional effect could not be represented in the leader rating system if he is assigned as Front leader.
Regarding "desired commanding level", would Zhukov be thinking about,'Hey, I am a GA, I could not be degraded to directly commanding a brigade'? Certainly not! In War, situation dictates everything, in serious situation, an army commander would lead a battalion to dash to the enemy gunfire if necessary. A good example is Guderain, more convincing example is Napoleon. Leaders have not problem to taking over the command of a smaller unit, in War, winning is the first thing to consider by warlords.
Anyway, I am intending to play the German side, so that is not my business about Zhukov. :)
Just my personal opinion as a player.



mktours -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/28/2015 11:57:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I think Zhukov would have been insulted to have been offered command of an army. And Stalin wouldn't have put him that far down the chain of command. Kirill Meretskov was the only General-Armii at the opening of Barbarossa commanding an army. His association with the debacle of the Finnish Winter War didn't do his reputation any favors.

If you really want to go all out defending Leningrad, why not give Zhukov the Front command, and put Konev, Vatutin, Rokossovsky and/or Tolbukhin as army commanders under him?

Many GA command an army in wite game, please check the commander reports in 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, you will see many. You are able to assign some GA to an army at any time of the game too.
As to the game tactic regarding defending Leningrad, different people have different ideas, so there is no standard answers.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/29/2015 1:23:58 AM)

I said at the opening of Barbarossa. And Stalin as well as the STAVKA recognized that Zhukov wasn't just another GA.



Mehring -> RE: Is Zhukov now forbidden to command an army in the new patch? (5/31/2015 10:25:26 AM)

If you want a Front commander to exert greater influence over an individual battle or the operation of one of its armies, move the Front HQ closer to the units in question. That's how the game represents HHQ "interference."



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