I am done (Full Version)

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SPerdomo -> I am done (6/8/2015 9:07:58 AM)

I want to start by saying that even though I have hardly posted, I am not new to Wif or MWif either.

I have played Wif since the 80s, when I was in high school. I first came in contact with Wif on the computer through the old download for Chris Marinacci’s version in 2003. I was happy when Matrix took over and I have followed the development of the game as a lurker for a long, long time.

I always found the continuous discussions on whether the game was taking too long or not a bit futile… the game would take whatever it needed to take.

I was confident that when it came out, it was going to be great, and it would allow me to finally play with my old WiF friends, now living far away due to work, families, and, well, life. The wait was worth it because I would finally be able to play this game that I love, with them.

Then, when the game was about to be launched and we heard about the price… well, I still went ahead and bought it because, what the hell, I have a good job, and this is Wif! How could I not buy it? Yes, it was overpriced if I compared it to any other strategic games that I play regularly, but, again, this was WiF.

I got the game, and I was surprised at some of the bugs, but I decided to be patient there as well, after all, I understood that the tester did a labour of love on this game, and without them this would not have happened, and, certainly, better a buggy game of WiF than no game of WiF?

Where I was much less understanding, was on other things, for example how "old" everything was, from a download system that, on the age of steam, feels like an old Ford T seating by a modern car, to the pop up windows during gameplay… it all felt like a game from the 70s or 80s… I was.. underwhelmed by it all.

But hey, this was still WiF… I could play it with my friends… except I couldn’t.

I was again disappointed, no AI, no netplay, again, on the age of Steam, when I only need a couple clicks and I am playing Europa Universalis IV with my friends, and here WiF is, 12 years or more into development, and no proper multiplayer, a UI from the origin of times, a download delivery system equally old…

But I am a patient guy. I kept the game, I visited the forums (a bit less and less regularly as the time passed) and kept hoping for netplay, AI, even a solo campaign that I could play with myself without major bugs. I dreamt of having a week long holiday with my friends, hooking the PC to a projector and playing on my living room’s wall, eating pizza until late and enjoying the banter of old times WiF.

Time moves on, however, and I bought a new computer. With Windows 8.1. And I had to go through that old system for downloading once more, and I installed the game… and now I am getting all kinds of errors and can’t make the game run.

So I paid over 100 euros on a game that I have played 10-15 hours by myself, full of nostalgia. I paid over 100 euros for a game that is stuck in technology 15 years old. I paid over 100 euros for a dream. But some times you have to move on from your dreams.

Hearts of Iron 4 will soon be out, it is not WiF. But it will be downloadable through steam, it will have multiplayer, AI, and it won’t cost over 100 euros.

I am not angry, not even much of the disappointing lingers. What I am left with is sadness. Of what could have been and will never be. I am done with this game. I am done with Matrix. I am really sorry for this, but I wanted to let you know. I was happy to invest my money on this, I was going to push for my friends to buy the game, now I can’t even be bothered to try and fix the errors I am getting to make this 2 year old game play on a modern PC and OS. It is sad.



Erik Rutins -> RE: I am done (6/8/2015 2:13:20 PM)

Hi SPerdomo,

I'm sorry to hear this - it should be possible to get the game running fine on Windows 8.1 If you contact our tech support through the help desk or at support@matrixgames.com we would be happy to help.

We've also come a very long way since release and NetPlay among other things is in much better shape. I can't help but feel that you're giving up a bit too soon, but I can understand how you got to this point.

Regards,

- Erik



Extraneous -> RE: I am done (6/8/2015 5:03:07 PM)

Maybe we expected too much after being in the ADG WiF Beta (Chris Marinacci’s version in 2003) [:(]




Centuur -> RE: I am done (6/8/2015 5:49:51 PM)

The game has improved a lot since release. On Netplay, thinks are looking far better than at release, but we are still not where we should be with that part of the game.

Solitair and Hot Seat really are improving after each public beta. The reason of the slow going is the ever reoccurring "regression bugs". Something gets fixed and due to that fix, something else pops up, which wasn't a problem before. That takes a lot of time out of everyone (and is really frustrating at times).

I can understand that people are disappointed. But we'll get there, if Steve stays healthy to complete this. The number of bugs is slowly going down, that's a fact...

So I can only say: come back in half a year and see how things are at that moment. Don't despair...







gw15 -> RE: I am done (6/8/2015 9:26:29 PM)

The solitaire game is absolutely playable and works fine for me. If I have a bug I go back one phase and then it progresses fine.
Barb netplay is almost there and if Barb naval netplay bugs are addressed then Guad netplay could almost be there.
I feel we are much, much closer than we ever have.
Keep in mind that the rules to this game are so well known that if the game doesn't exactly replicate those rules then people yell "bug!". Other computer wargames like CWII, etc. the player doesn't know if there is a bug because there are no separate rules to compare against.
Hearts of Iron has hundreds of bugs but the player never knows it.



Gizuria -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 2:46:55 AM)

I uninstalled the game last month as well. I have been waiting patiently for the one-map scenarios to be released since the release and have grown increasingly frustrated month after month reading the updates to see that no work has been done on them. I don't see any chance of seeing the Fascist Tide scenario any time this year if at all anymore.

Yup, I have been told that I can play the Global War scenario but frankly, when I'm playing as Germany, I find fighting the Pacific war as boring as hell and when I'm playing the Pacific war, I find the war in Europe as boring as hell. I don't want to play both.

I won't be re-installing this game and definitely NOT buying anything for this game until I get the one-map scenarios.



juntoalmar -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 3:28:57 AM)

I understand some customers frustration. Some other are enjoying it well too. Personally, playing solo/hotseat for Barbarrossa, Guadalcanal works well, and Global War may not be perfect yet, still quite playable in my opinion.

Can be played online with TeamViewer or Google Talk, so for now I am not in a rush with NetPlay.






pzgndr -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 11:19:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog
I have been waiting patiently for the one-map scenarios to be released since the release


+1

And AI opponent. I continue to wait, patiently and not-so-patiently as the case may be. My MWiF books are still wrapped, ready for some future day...



Extraneous -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 12:20:55 PM)

The one question I have not seen about an AI for MWiF is:

Do you just want an AI or a good AI [&:] (A good AI is one that doesn't cheat.)





Jagdtiger14 -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 4:14:58 PM)

About AI...I don't understand why people are so worked up about having this feature. AI is good if you want to learn the game mechanics on your own, but is not gaming best when played against other humans? Affordable AI that can come close to what humans can do is just not there yet, for now its going to have to cheat to be competitive. I remember a post from Steve saying he does not want an AI that will cheat, and while that's a good goal, I just don't see that kind of AI happening any time soon for us wargamers. Frankly I'm happy Steve has put AI on the way back burner. Netplay cant come soon enough for me.



bo -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 4:23:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The one question I have not seen about an AI for MWiF is:

Do you just want an AI or a good AI [&:] (A good AI is one that doesn't cheat.)





Hi Extraneous.

Good question on the AI, personally I would just like an AI very good, good, not so good, or bad, well maybe not bad.

Most posters if I remember right feel that his game is too huge and complex to have a decent AI, but they might use it to bone up on strategies, or play the game when they want to play it and not wait a week or two for a human player.

Wif board game people seem to only want to play net play because all of their playing days have been against humans and that makes sense for them. There may be some [WIF'ers] who might appreciate a decent AI [whatever that means to each player] but most likely they would prefer human competition.

You use the word cheat, you seem to know games very well so maybe you can explain that better. I know a lot of games have 3 to 5 levels to choose from to play the AI, I assume that these levels might be additional units or more power assigned to each unit depending on the level chosen.

Could you explain better to me what you considers as cheats, not a loaded question as I really do not know if some AI's cheat or more likely I am not aware of it.

Bo



bo -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 4:46:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

About AI...I don't understand why people are so worked up about having this feature. AI is good if you want to learn the game mechanics on your own, but is not gaming best when played against other humans? Affordable AI that can come close to what humans can do is just not there yet, for now its going to have to cheat to be competitive. I remember a post from Steve saying he does not want an AI that will cheat, and while that's a good goal, I just don't see that kind of AI happening any time soon for us wargamers. Frankly I'm happy Steve has put AI on the way back burner. Netplay cant come soon enough for me.


Hi Jagd, I will try to answer this from my view point only, If you own the board game I understand where you are coming from. The AI to me is an outlet, meaning I can start a game save it, come back later if a family matter crops up and restore the game. It allows me to play when I want to play.

I personally feel you are right about we may not see a real breakthrough on AI's happening soon for us wargamers, agreed. But I see problems here for players who have gotten married and their time is allocated differently then when they were single.

When do they play and if they do is the wife happy about you playing for hours upon hours when she would like for you to do other things, not being smart just practical that's all. Hopefully Steve can allot time to do a decent AI I know I would appreciate it.

I checked all the companies, Matrix, Slitherine, Paradox, Battlefront, and every game has an AI, good bad or indifferent. So programmers think maybe that an AI is a must. Most of these authors of games to the best of my knowledge are teams. Whether good or bad Matrix did not go in that direction to program this game.

No criticism intended, it is what it is, it is the road they chose, it is their company and they have the right to pick any path they want to. I just wished they had chosen a different path for the AI[:(]

Bo



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 4:49:53 PM)

Bo, I would say the best way for the AI to cheat would be on having favorable die rolls. If the scale was 1 least cheat, to 5 most cheat...a 5 would be favorable (to the AI) weather and turn end die rolls plus any positive results on any die roll you can make in WiF...a 4 would be the same minus the positive turn end/weather die rolls. A 1 would be maybe just one favorable die roll result...ie...combat (naval or land randomly to keep it interesting).



bo -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 4:55:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Bo, I would say the best way for the AI to cheat would be on having favorable die rolls. If the scale was 1 least cheat, to 5 most cheat...a 5 would be favorable (to the AI) weather and turn end die rolls plus any positive results on any die roll you can make in WiF...a 4 would be the same minus the positive turn end/weather die rolls. A 1 would be maybe just one favorable die roll result...ie...combat (naval or land randomly to keep it interesting).


Thank you never thought of that, but if that is the case I do not see any problem with it as we know us humans can defeat any AI cheating or not[;)]

I am glad you explained that to me as this must be what is happening to me in 3rd Reich lately [:D] Man is that program cheating [:(]

I think I am just rusty though have not played it for about 5 years we shall see.

Bo



Centuur -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 5:45:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Bo, I would say the best way for the AI to cheat would be on having favorable die rolls. If the scale was 1 least cheat, to 5 most cheat...a 5 would be favorable (to the AI) weather and turn end die rolls plus any positive results on any die roll you can make in WiF...a 4 would be the same minus the positive turn end/weather die rolls. A 1 would be maybe just one favorable die roll result...ie...combat (naval or land randomly to keep it interesting).


Thank you never thought of that, but if that is the case I do not see any problem with it as we know us humans can defeat any AI cheating or not[;)]

I am glad you explained that to me as this must be what is happening to me in 3rd Reich lately [:D] Man is that program cheating [:(]

I think I am just rusty though have not played it for about 5 years we shall see.

Bo


I haven't played that game in 20 years... But it's a nice beer and pretzels game, compared to WiF...



AlbertN -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 6:50:07 PM)

I've yet to find a strategy game with a good AI (as per that acts sensibly), and not an AI that needs extra production or other tricks to be somehow competitive (and usually still screw up with movements and operations).

Hence I do not feel for a grand strategy game an AI worth the effort. As I am sceptical any new player of a strategy game would buy this product as the one to lose his strategy-virginity with, I am confident all of the players who buy MWiF would grasp the basic mechanics of the game, and they can work in solo from there as the game enforces most of the rules.

But for what the OP said, I've windows 8.1 and the game runs smoothly with no problem!




warspite1 -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 7:37:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Bo, I would say the best way for the AI to cheat would be on having favorable die rolls. If the scale was 1 least cheat, to 5 most cheat...a 5 would be favorable (to the AI) weather and turn end die rolls plus any positive results on any die roll you can make in WiF...a 4 would be the same minus the positive turn end/weather die rolls. A 1 would be maybe just one favorable die roll result...ie...combat (naval or land randomly to keep it interesting).
warspite1

I would be in favour of the AI "cheating" by always getting the best available unit.

So for example if it is a fighter that is decided is required by the AI, then the unit "chosen" is automatically that with the best A2A rating. Of course what is "best" may not always be known e.g. do you need range too? Perhaps the grognards could come up with an order - best to last - that could be used.



pzgndr -> RE: I am done (6/9/2015 8:35:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Do you just want an AI or a good AI [&:] (A good AI is one that doesn't cheat.)



I want an AI as challenging or better than the AI that I scripted myself for my Advanced Third Reich mod using Strategic Command 2 Global Conflict. At this point I'm wondering if Steve will get Fascist Tide with AI working first, or if I will be able to update my mod for SC3 first.

As for cheating, there are difficulty levels and other bonuses needed to compensate for AI weaknesses. No AI, or human opponent for that matter, is perfect. I would characterize the Strategic Command series AI as challenging. It is possible to have a challenging AI, which really bothers some folks but they'll get over it. I am optimistic that Steve will eventually implement a challenging AI computer opponent for MWifF, despite the naysayers. We shall see.



Rasputitsa -> RE: I am done (6/10/2015 8:49:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen
I've yet to find a strategy game with a good AI (as per that acts sensibly), and not an AI that needs extra production or other tricks to be somehow competitive (and usually still screw up with movements and operations).

Hence I do not feel for a grand strategy game an AI worth the effort. As I am sceptical any new player of a strategy game would buy this product as the one to lose his strategy-virginity with, I am confident all of the players who buy MWiF would grasp the basic mechanics of the game, and they can work in solo from there as the game enforces most of the rules.

But for what the OP said, I've windows 8.1 and the game runs smoothly with no problem!


Comments on AI have kicked around forever and Yes, an AI is never going to be as inventive as a human opponent, but AI can be much more historical and avoid so many of the balance issues which keep appearing in these games.

If you give the Soviet Union an accurate OOB (10,000s of AFV) and any standard of command and control which a human player would expect, then they become unbeatable. Then you have to fudge and twist the rules to keep some balance. No human player would be prepared to suffer the historical level of command and control that the Soviets had in the early years, but an AI will.

As for sensible behaviour, the historical record is full of not so sensible strategies used by, or forced on, actual commanders. The AI will simulate this, as how sensible were the Allies in 1940, the Axis at Stalingrad and many more.

In a gaming world of 20/20 hindsight, I am happy to have some uncertainty thrown in, however it comes, whether cheats, difficulty levels, etc., but an AI can be programmed to provide those WTF moments that real warfare has in abundance. [:)]



cfc20045 -> RE: I am done (6/10/2015 1:17:23 PM)

I can't personally see a full blown AI working,however I'm happy to be proved wrong and would dearly love to see a full AI incorporated into MWIF. I would also settle for a less complete AI that could compliment the Solo player, by this I mean:

* Automate the setup of Units at the start of the game i.e. you could choose countries where the AI would decide the setup at the start of the scenario. Would speed things up and provide some variety.

* AI could play attacked minors i.e. Poland, Holland, Belgium, Denmmark, Portugal etc... and to the benefit of the minor and not the aligned major power. Never happy with the concept of players flying the Polish airforce straight out of the country at the first opportunity, rather than fighting to preserve they freedom to the bitter end.

* I'm sure it should be reasonably straightforward to add AI for China possibly Russia,

* And one for less AI, an option to turn off the automated routing of the resources so that you can manually setup the convoy routes.



Neilster -> RE: I am done (6/10/2015 2:12:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shotgun

I can't personally see a full blown AI working,however I'm happy to be proved wrong and would dearly love to see a full AI incorporated into MWIF. I would also settle for a less complete AI that could compliment the Solo player, by this I mean:

* Automate the setup of Units at the start of the game i.e. you could choose countries where the AI would decide the setup at the start of the scenario. Would speed things up and provide some variety.

* AI could play attacked minors i.e. Poland, Holland, Belgium, Denmmark, Portugal etc... and to the benefit of the minor and not the aligned major power. Never happy with the concept of players flying the Polish airforce straight out of the country at the first opportunity, rather than fighting to preserve they freedom to the bitter end.

* I'm sure it should be reasonably straightforward to add AI for China possibly Russia,

* And one for less AI, an option to turn off the automated routing of the resources so that you can manually setup the convoy routes.

Most of this was discussed years ago and Steve decided he had enough on his plate getting a competent AI working. So basically, if you're playing one side, you're in control of everything. Same for if you're playing a major power.

Cheers, Neilster



Extraneous -> RE: I am done (6/10/2015 3:02:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


I want an AI as challenging or better than the AI that I scripted myself for my Advanced Third Reich mod using Strategic Command 2 Global Conflict. At this point I'm wondering if Steve will get Fascist Tide with AI working first, or if I will be able to update my mod for SC3 first.

As for cheating, there are difficulty levels and other bonuses needed to compensate for AI weaknesses. No AI, or human opponent for that matter, is perfect. I would characterize the Strategic Command series AI as challenging. It is possible to have a challenging AI, which really bothers some folks but they'll get over it. I am optimistic that Steve will eventually implement a challenging AI computer opponent for MWifF, despite the naysayers. We shall see.



I suggested a scripted AI years ago but the idea was declined.




brian brian -> RE: I am done (6/12/2015 1:47:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

If you give the Soviet Union an accurate OOB (10,000s of AFV) and any standard of command and control which a human player would expect, then they become unbeatable. Then you have to fudge and twist the rules to keep some balance. No human player would be prepared to suffer the historical level of command and control that the Soviets had in the early years, but an AI will.

As for sensible behaviour, the historical record is full of not so sensible strategies used by, or forced on, actual commanders. The AI will simulate this, as how sensible were the Allies in 1940, the Axis at Stalingrad and many more.

In a gaming world of 20/20 hindsight, I am happy to have some uncertainty thrown in, however it comes, whether cheats, difficulty levels, etc., but an AI can be programmed to provide those WTF moments that real warfare has in abundance. [:)]




This is a great post, but it reveals why we all play World in Flames. The Allies held a huge numerical and industrial advantage, yet there are ways the Axis could have won the war. (Though the most likely one would have been if Nazi ideology wasn't so extreme). There was another good recent post on here somewhere about Russian production vs German production and how the Russians probably pulled ahead already at the end of 1941, even in all the chaos of massive defeats at the front. (Where is that post? It might have been on the Yahoo mailing list discussing upcoming changes to Production Multiples though, sorry)

So to simulate the war, you can't just say Germany attacks Russia with 2 million men but he Russians have 3 million men so the Russians win. Whether with paper and cardboard or pixels and mouse, subjectivity has to be involved to rate how much each of those men are worth. The German was worth more than the Russian, in large part due to Stalin's purge in the 1930s. I think Stalin and Hitler, each as the head of a top-down Dictator system, hampered their countries' war effort quite significantly (well modeled in the game), but Hitler didn't mess up his army's tactical capabilities the way the Communists did to theirs.

I think I settled on World in Flames because it does such a good job of that subjective rating of each country's military affairs. For the Russians, their units continue to improve - IF the player is smart enough to manage their military output well.

The first AI I ever played was a simulation of the first year of Barbarossa. The AI was given the cheat of permanently increasing combat factors. The AI units just always got stronger and stronger. The fun wore off playing it almost instantly. I seriously doubt Steve has any plans to put in any cheat at all in the AI he will write.



Rosseau -> RE: I am done (6/12/2015 1:58:56 AM)

New to WiF, but 30 years gaming. It's the best East Front land warfare game I've ever encountered. Not as crazy about the naval stuff; just blow through some of that to get to the land game [;)]



Braig -> RE: I am done (6/21/2015 6:35:59 AM)

Yes, gaming is best played against other human opponents! That being said, I don't have the time or inclination to schedule the amount of time that this game requires anymore. I've played it since the 80's and you can find my name in the credits. I'n very aware of how long a complete game takes. This is the reason I want to see the AI. Steve's whole purpose of taking on this project was developing a competent AI for WiF I like his direction and ideas on how to make it work. I'm excited to see how it works out. As for now, I've put the game away until an AI is released.



bo -> RE: I am done (6/23/2015 1:41:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Braig

Yes, gaming is best played against other human opponents! That being said, I don't have the time or inclination to schedule the amount of time that this game requires anymore. I've played it since the 80's and you can find my name in the credits. I'n very aware of how long a complete game takes. This is the reason I want to see the AI. Steve's whole purpose of taking on this project was developing a competent AI for WiF I like his direction and ideas on how to make it work. I'm excited to see how it works out. As for now, I've put the game away until an AI is released.



Hi Braig, could not agree more with your post, some posters here think when you insist on an AI you do not want to play humans and that is just not correct. I would like to play humans but it has to be a mutual time agreeable by two or more players and I see that as somewhat difficult with a lot of players.

The AI gives you the freedom to practice tactics or just enjoy the game without time restrictions. A good AI would of course be enjoyable to most players but with the complexity of this game I would settle for any kind of an AI for now [:(]

Bo



majordefeat -> RE: I am done (6/23/2015 4:00:09 PM)

If WiF the computer game was an infantry unit it would be an italian militia.



Rosseau -> RE: I am done (6/23/2015 9:12:53 PM)

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.



Neilster -> RE: I am done (6/24/2015 2:51:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.

I'm pretty sure Steve has been making money on the game since it's been released and he's an AI programmer from way back.

Cheers, Neilster



Extraneous -> RE: I am done (6/24/2015 2:53:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster


quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.

I'm pretty sure Steve has been making money on the game since it's been released and he's an AI programmer from way back.

Cheers, Neilster




What happened to Peter?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
September 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

Artificial Intelligence (AI)
Nothing substantially new. Peter S. has been working on the strategic plans for Italy and I added a comment or three from time to time.





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