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warspite1 -> RE: If Napoleon had won his "Waterloo" .... (6/9/2015 5:00:49 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
Interesting idea but I just don't see it. History tells us that people just fundamentally don't like being told what to do by any foreign invader.
"Hey our king may be a 24-carat twat, but do you know what? He's our twat - and at least he's not [French, German, Spanish, Russian, Italian, Swedish, British, American etc - insert to taste or as befits the scenario]".
You may be taking too modern a take on it. The Austrian and Ottoman Empires were pretty polyglot. Most of Germany was divided up into petty fiefdoms fearful of Prussia. Look how long the Normans lorded it over the English (You could make the case that they're still doing so if you check the pedigrees of British Kings). It wasn't till Edward I that The King of England could even speak English (and it still wasn't his first language).
warspite1
Maybe, and there are always exceptions. However, if you look through history, how many invasions and conquests have lasted for any length of time before the natives get restless? It will usually happen eventually - particularly if there is an external party there to help e.g. Britain with Portugal and Spain.
I am not sure I agree re the Normans though. This was definitely one of those exceptions.
I'm just pointing out that Nationalism was a late arrival to the scene. There were inklings of it late in the Napoleonic Wars, but it mostly kicked in later in the 19th Century. I've already mentioned the Austrian and Ottoman Empires as long-lasting examples of multi-national peoples being lorded over. The Normans succeeded because they only had to kick out the Anglo-Saxon lords and replace them with their own guys. The common people didn't really care. And it was a really long time before any Anglo-Saxon blood found its way back into the royal line.
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But the idea that they are still "lording over the English"?? and "you could make the case that they're still doing so if you check the pedigrees of British Kings" are strange sentiments.
1066 was a long time ago! I can assure you there is absolutely no sense of the French or the Normans or whoever "lording it over us". We are who we are and William the Conqueror is a big part of that.
The pedigree of British Kings? Well considering we imported the Dutch William and Mary (Charles II was just toooo Catholic dahling) and later the "German" Hanoverians, I think its fair to say the Norman influence, from a Royal perspective, is over [;)]
If your point is that the Dutch and "German" Kings constitute a quasi-invasion then again that is most certainly not the case (and I assume that is not what you are saying). The daily life of your average Briton did not change one iota due to these changes of convenience.
Ok, a bit of hyperbole, but they all trace to the Conqueror and the amount of Anglo-Saxon in them is swamped by French and German. Of course there is no "sense" of it because they don't act foreign, having lived in Britain for centuries. It wasn't just the British - all the royal houses interbred all over Europe. The Russian Tsars were more German than Russian, they married so many German princesses.
warspite1
I wasn't particularly thinking about nationialism necessarily - more to do with human's inate desire not to be subjugated. But agree that it would be easier to accomplish (depending on other factors too) if there is a central focus that people can rally around e.g. the flag.
The Anglo-Saxon/Norman thing is interesting and sadly not something I fully understand. I take your point re the nobles. But considering the victory was pretty damn conclusive - why did French not become the language? Why was English able to make a re-appearance and not simply die out? Presumably the lack of a proper education system for the masses - something that makes the original article's supposition that we would all be speaking French within years more than a little ridiculous.
Re the inter-breading yes that is a given, but normally (as far as I know) that is a case of a person marrying into the family. I wonder how many other countries actually "imported foreign Royal Families" [:)] i.e. the husband and the wife? No idea about William and Mary but I believe that George I spoke only German and French - no English!
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