Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (Full Version)

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oho_slith -> Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 9:25:55 AM)

I see almost only line formation when AI controlled troops move around on the battlefield. This results after 10 Minutes of almost each scenario (sandbox or waterloo) in overlapping lines, battalion lines changing forming rings(!), and wheeling when engaged very often. This really kills immersion for me and makes the game not at all enjoyable to play.
Question: Can I change the AI behaviour by modding so that it uses column in division almost all the time, only when very close to the enemy it tries to form a line, can I prevent it from wheeling too?
If so: is there a release date for the modding-tool already. Until then I think I have to put the game on the shelf.
Can you somehow confirm that with the deveoping team?



LittlePowell_NSD -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 11:42:35 AM)

There will always be some overlapping--and with the huge battalions, it will never be perfect (overlapping happened in real life too). It is much improved over Gettysburg. However, the formations are moddable.. We are working on the SDK now and it will be out as soon as possible.



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 1:28:03 PM)

Thanks for your answer. Can you tell something about the level of detail we can modify and which parameters?
I would be very pleased with something like the following examples:
- French Line Infantry, non-road movement not under threat: use formation
in column of division.
- English Guards Reaction time (start of wheeling) after discovery of new thread x seconds.
- French Light Inf wheeling time for x degrees x seconds.
- Inf Fire value of Inf in column of division = 1/3 rd strength.

Does ASAP mean this week / this month / this year [:'(] ?






LittlePowell_NSD -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 1:35:53 PM)

Mitra is better to answer your questions. I'm sure he'll chime in.

I'm sorry but we don't have an ETA on the release at this time. But it will be soon, within the next couple weeks I would hope.



benpark -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 1:51:49 PM)

The AI does a bit of the jumble jitterbug getting into formation. Once it gets there, it does a pretty good job of presenting a decent line. I just had a sandbox battle with cavalry at both flanks, stopping me from presenting any decent firepower (most units in squares) to the approaching enemy infantry. That was fantastic to see.

Maybe the collision detection could be modded/increased a bit, so that only the ends of units are allowed to overlap. That would lessen the chaos visually. I'm sure there would be other unintended factors, but its great that the AI will be mod-able.



FroBodine -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 2:19:35 PM)

Benpark's suggestion is excellent, with the collision detection eased up at the ends.

I don't want to have to mod the game to fix the problems. I am not a modder. The developers should fix these problems with their game.

I want this game, but I do not want the frustration that oho is talking about. And the suggestion to mod the game ourselves is a poor one.




LittlePowell_NSD -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 2:38:19 PM)


quote:


I want this game, but I do not want the frustration that oho is talking about. And the suggestion to mod the game ourselves is a poor one.


I'm not suggesting that the game should be modded. I'm just stating that the game was designed to be very mod friendly.

The overlapping issues can be improved, (and they will be.. remember, this is 1.0). But there will always be things that don't look 100% right because you have to remember, this is a game and it has limitations. If each unit calculated perfect paths around each other all the time, the CPU cycles would be astronomical, and not even a supercomputer from the Pentagon could run the game.

But again, this game is a baby and things will be improved.



FroBodine -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 2:57:55 PM)

Thank you for the response, Little Powell. I'm just curious . . . having never played any Scourge of War games, why don't you just let the player put their units in line anywhere they want, overlapping or not. In the Total War games, you can overlap your lines, criss cross them, whatever you want. I'm not saying that is the most realistic or the right way to do it, but the game lets you, and you don't have the problem of your units always trying to reposition.

Just curious.



LittlePowell_NSD -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 3:23:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

Thank you for the response, Little Powell. I'm just curious . . . having never played any Scourge of War games, why don't you just let the player put their units in line anywhere they want, overlapping or not. In the Total War games, you can overlap your lines, criss cross them, whatever you want. I'm not saying that is the most realistic or the right way to do it, but the game lets you, and you don't have the problem of your units always trying to reposition.

Just curious.


That's a good question, and I hope I can supply a good enough answer. Basically we shoot for a happy medium between the two. If the units overlap too much, then people complain that they become a jumbled mess (much like what happens in TW). But if they don't overlap at all, they do indeed try and reposition too often, let alone the CPU cycles it costs for the constant path checking.

Norb would be better to answer exactly how it works, but that's the basic idea. Again, there's always room for improvement. But just like how the map is very accurate, it's not a perfect 1:1 representation of Waterloo, Belgium in 1815. And the unit movement, overlapping will never be perfect either. Basically we have to balance the advantages in some areas, and disadvantages in others to make the most enjoyable game experience as possible.



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 4:17:53 PM)

jglazier:
I'm not too much concerned about my own troops when I controll the battalions. The Problem is the AI that moves the troops around in line formation which is NOT historical and looks strange too. So it's not because of game limitations, it's a design question in my view.
I really don't know, why the team didn't use the historical formation, which is actually built in the game and which you can use when you control the units yourself. [8|]



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 4:28:06 PM)

And calculation of enemy threats and reacting to it are not too seldom but too often in my view, which results in troops wheeling in speed of light when a different target comes closer. I think it was much less dynamic in napoleon battlefields.



Pawsy -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 6:43:46 PM)

Well I saw the AI carry out an attack to day on Le hay Sante farm, very impressed. A brigade I sent to its right flank supported the attack - all done by the AI all I did was send them to the area and turn on AI.


I think, from my limted play, that where you see overlapping etc is where uyou have not given the brigade enough room or frontage. If you send too many units to the same place confusion will regin as it would do in reality if you had two brigades without sufficient room. Key is to launch your units at the right moment. Switch on the AI. Make sure you have supply wagons closed up.

If you have ever had the honour of moving a formed body of men around you will know they can move very quickly at the halt and wheel quickly. But also it can be very difficult co-ordinating your own drill with that of the others even on a flat parade square :-)



FroBodine -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 6:53:23 PM)

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.



RebBugler -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:01:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

Well I saw the AI carry out an attack to day on Le hay Sante farm, very impressed. A brigade I sent to its right flank supported the attack - all done by the AI all I did was send them to the area and turn on AI.


I think, from my limted play, that where you see overlapping etc is where uyou have not given the brigade enough room or frontage. If you send too many units to the same place confusion will regin as it would do in reality if you had two brigades without sufficient room. Key is to launch your units at the right moment. Switch on the AI. Make sure you have supply wagons closed up.

If you have ever had the honour of moving a formed body of men around you will know they can move very quickly at the halt and wheel quickly. But also it can be very difficult co-ordinating your own drill with that of the others even on a flat parade square :-)


Thank you very much for this insight. It's obviously much more highly regarded than us NSD teamers defending our baby.



zakblood -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:03:48 PM)

quote:

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.


from watching the twitch feed live a few mins ago, playing Waterloo it's too big and hard to command it all your self so better to give a general order then let the AI do the last bit etc for most or some of your army anyway, or you get bogged down too quick, better to lead from the top and let the officers do there job as your the commander in chief if you want to be or lower rank if selected or wanted to be, so pick what level your comfy with and control them, all go for broke and try and do them all as the AI will take over it seems if you don't give them orders and they go into combat[;)]



Gunfreak -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:26:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.


From my gertysburg days, if you control a single corps, you can personally control your divisions. Anyghing bigger and it gets messy.

Remember unlike total war, you dont have 20 units, but hundreds.

1 army.
2-5 corps.
Each corps 2-4 divisions
each division 2-4 brigades
each brigade 2-8 battalions.

1st french corps at Waterloo had 33 battalions, 10-15 squadrons of cav, 44 cannon in 6 batteries. So that corps alone is like 3 times the size of a total war army.



zakblood -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:32:21 PM)

can't really compare it to TW, as apart from the early ones, the rest suck big time, well the last 2 did anyway and this is way better in many parts, still like rome 1 and the others as much, but dont get me started on rome 2 or ATTILA , or i'll cry[:(]



RebBugler -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.


TC (Take Charge of AI) is a key element of player control. TC of brigade officers will pretty much keep your battalions at bay, except when they are engaged. 'TC on' works at the battalion level also but I prefer attackmarch. Caution with 'TC on' at the battalion level as units left in this state (it must be switched off manually) are basically helpless as they cannot wheel to defend themselves.

Attackmarch on the other hand switches off automatically when bumping the enemy or reaching it's destination ordered by the player. TC is stronger but attackmarch is less risky if you get distracted and forget about your units status. In the heat of battle it's easy to forget that poor TC'd battalion that's getting ripped to shreds because his back is to the enemy.

Also use caution with officers that are 'TC on'. We call them TC zombies. They have no fear of death, however, they can be killed very easily as they have no AI hooked up which allows them to avoid death or capture. Once dead, they'll be replaced by 'Untrained' officers. Believe me, you don't want these...they are low level AI performers and will lead their troops into disaster, unless, or course, you TC them.



Gudadantza -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 7:51:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.


I can truly understand your point of view because I had the same vision when I discovered years ago Take Command Second Manassas and later SoW Getty. The reasons were the ways of playing I had deep with me since the Sid Meier Gettysburg days and why not the old total war.

But believe me, this is another horse and once you understand the differences in ways of play you will enjoy deeply in a different manner. You will discover yourself playing the game accepting some chaos, letting some leaders do their jobs, thinking the big picture (and managing yourself other leaders too) but forgetting be obsessed with micromanaging. Micromanagement that is perfectly possible of course.

Greetings



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 8:02:46 PM)

I had to be more precise, sorry: I mean the ENEMY AI before all, that is getting messed up when moving around the battlefield. I can control my OWN units sufficiently, using the right formations, even when commanding only brigade or division.
The ENEMY AI is the problem!!!
I could show you tons of screenshots where they stand around and crossing each other in the middle of the units - flags very close to each other. For me gettysburgh looked and felt much better even with only lines.



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 8:12:22 PM)

Amalur: you can't control all units by yourself, but you can give decent comands to at least brigades so they don't mess up with each other when marching towards the enemy for example to use attack column with battalions in column by division behind each other, that looks correct and you don't get too much of these overlapping problems .



oho_slith -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 8:17:11 PM)

RebBugler: I really want to like this game believe me, but maybe you see it as a multiplayer - then I believe, it can look different. As a single player it's not good for me unless the formations are tweaked and the wheeling on speed is resolved.



RebBugler -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 8:20:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amalur

quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

I keep reading about switching AI on. Can you play this game by controlling all units yourself, or does it become to much to handle? Is it necessary to have the AI control portions of your army? I think I would like to control everything in a game like this, so I'm just curious how it works.


I can truly understand your point of view because I had the same vision when I discovered years ago Take Command Second Manassas and later SoW Getty. The reasons were the ways of playing I had deep with me since the Sid Meier Gettysburg days and why not the old total war.

But believe me, this is another horse and once you understand the differences in ways of play you will enjoy deeply in a different manner. You will discover yourself playing the game accepting some chaos, letting some leaders do their jobs, thinking the big picture (and managing yourself other leaders too) but forgetting be obsessed with micromanaging. Micromanagement that is perfectly possible of course.

Greetings


Excellent Sir!

Furthermore, initially I prefer to TC my officers and move them by brigade into the action, then it's my strategy, and a learning curve is established. Once engaged it's TC OFF time unit by unit, allowing each officer to do his thing by running around and supporting (Officer Support Bonus) units taking the most heat or in trouble of routing. This works much better in WL than GB because the units rarely melee which many times results in the officer getting killed trying to support the meleeing unit.



Gudadantza -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 8:49:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oho

Amalur: you can't control all units by yourself, but you can give decent comands to at least brigades so they don't mess up with each other when marching towards the enemy for example to use attack column with battalions in column by division behind each other, that looks correct and you don't get too much of these overlapping problems .


Well, in fact, if I am in the mood and depending the situation I TC even regiments [:)]. and I have a lot of fun correcting personality defects from incompetent officers [:D]

Greetings




Gudadantza -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 9:13:06 PM)

But seriously speaking and to be honest I understand.
It is not the same accepting decissions of the AI according to the officer in charge than looking an overlapping mess, or a regiment being shot innecesarely in colummn or crossed. Gettysburg had those defects occasionaly. Even more TC2M with less sprites.

Greetins.



Pawsy -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/11/2015 10:28:17 PM)

this plus 1

quote:

I prefer to TC my officers and move them by brigade into the action, then it's my strategy, and a learning curve is established. Once engaged it's TC OFF time unit by unit, allowing each officer to do his thing by running around and supporting (Officer Support Bonus) units taking the most heat or in trouble of routing.


works well and the AI will use various formations, split skirmishers, send units to resupply (you did move the supply wagons forward too didnt you?) and do a good job. But it requires you the commander to allocate them enough room to carry out the attack on the obective. If the flanking units are too close they will overlap and have problems deploying. Flanking formations attacks require careful sequencing, timing and objectives that support the main attack

As a test I did this uisng the Div commanders to carry out the attack. Worked fine but a Div needs a good frontage.



FroBodine -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/12/2015 12:14:22 AM)

So, it sounds like the game is down to the brigade level. Can you give movement/positioning/attack orders to your division and corps leaders, and hope they carry them out if set to AI control?

I love Attila: Total War. It is a very fun game. Sorry . . . side trip.

Anyway, I also play the Combat Mission games, Normandy and Black Sea. You control many, many units in those bigger scenarios, too. But you can control each and every one of them and it is manageable. I just don't want to buy and play a game where I'm not doing much but watching the AI play for me. Is this game like that?

I guess I need to watch the newest Twitch replay, but I still appreciate comments from the pros here.



histgamer -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/12/2015 6:25:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

So, it sounds like the game is down to the brigade level. Can you give movement/positioning/attack orders to your division and corps leaders, and hope they carry them out if set to AI control?

I love Attila: Total War. It is a very fun game. Sorry . . . side trip.

Anyway, I also play the Combat Mission games, Normandy and Black Sea. You control many, many units in those bigger scenarios, too. But you can control each and every one of them and it is manageable. I just don't want to buy and play a game where I'm not doing much but watching the AI play for me. Is this game like that?

I guess I need to watch the newest Twitch replay, but I still appreciate comments from the pros here.



You can literally turn the AI off on all of your units by taking command. The scale goes down to Battalions. The smallest unit with a General is a Brigade but those are made up of Battalions. If you want you can take command of everything but you don't have to. I often take command at the Brigade level, I leave the Battalions because in General a Battalion will not do much without you telling it to. In general it will only make minor tweaks like wheeling a bit or falling back etc.



Pawsy -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/12/2015 7:48:34 AM)

quote:

The smallest unit with a General is a Brigade


Not correct, you can use your Div/Corp commanders as well they will then give orders down to Bde commanders etc.

Best is to take command and move your units at Div/Bde level then turn on the AI for the advance/attack etc. Some Bn level work is sometimes needed. If your going to mico manage every Bn you will fail. The AI for example will move the commander to provide command support to wavering units or send units to resupply etc



histgamer -> RE: Dissapointed of formation, moddable? (6/12/2015 8:41:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

quote:

The smallest unit with a General is a Brigade


Not correct, you can use your Div/Corp commanders as well they will then give orders down to Bde commanders etc.

Best is to take command and move your units at Div/Bde level then turn on the AI for the advance/attack etc. Some Bn level work is sometimes needed. If your going to mico manage every Bn you will fail. The AI for example will move the commander to provide command support to wavering units or send units to resupply etc


There are artillery battery commanders so yes there are commanders below the Brigade commander but Battalions do not have on map commanders though it is simulated. I strictly meant there is no Battalion commander on a horse that rides around. Still you can control them so the scale is at the Battalion/Battery level, though microing that far down is rarely needed.



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