Small arms and armor penetration (Full Version)

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jungelsj_slith -> Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:08:49 AM)

So I've been messing around in the editor, and I've noticed that small arms with 0 armor penetration are actually really good at killing lightly armored vehicles. The test consisted of rifle squads fighting vehicles with a 3/1 armor rating. They held their own, even occasionally killing two tanks at once. Range was always over 400 meters on the tank kills.

Is this working as intended?



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 8:38:10 AM)

Hi Molotov

What rationality where the infantry?

Did they have any AT weapons?



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 8:55:38 AM)

Hi

By rationality I assume you mean nationality? They are west german, but its a formation/unit I made in the data editor.

The only AT weapons they had were grenades with 25m range. All of the "engagements" were at 400+ yards though (they were not in the same hex.)



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 9:05:52 AM)

So just to make sure, I removed all of their weapons except for rifles (SA 2, armor piercing of 0) and tried the test again - still killing the 3/1 tanks really easily.



Tazak -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 9:49:48 AM)

Light armoured vehicles should be venerable to small arms, don't forget there are 2 types of 'killed', hard kill e.g. Vehicle is left burning or turret blown off, and a 'soft' kill e.g. running gear/optics damaged. I'd expect small arms to be able to get soft kills on light armoured with little effort.



Lowlaner2012 -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 10:12:02 AM)

Yes I did mean nationality, bloody auto correct :-)

Molotov when you say infantry v tanks do you mean MBTs, IFVs or trucks and such?

I have been playing the Russian campaign and most vehicles that were "knocked out" during battle had actually just been damaged and were recoverable after the scenario...

Maybe in 2.1 the generic KIA message could be broadened to KIA actually meaning a totally destroyed vehicle and another message for vehicles that are just damaged and had to fall out...



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:04:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Light armoured vehicles should be venerable to small arms, don't forget there are 2 types of 'killed', hard kill e.g. Vehicle is left burning or turret blown off, and a 'soft' kill e.g. running gear/optics damaged. I'd expect small arms to be able to get soft kills on light armoured with little effort.


So the test I just ran again put the kills at about a 3:2 ratio of hard kills to soft kills - so it looks like both types are happening. Even soft kills aside, I think the issue is that a company of infantry with rifles only is reliably defeating a company of armored vehicles with 20mm autocannons and MG's. Doesn't seem quite right?

But consider this - if we're saying that small arms should get kills from running gear and optics hits, wouldn't the armor not matter at all? If that's the case, then that same company of infantry should be just as effective against T-80's, Abrams, etc?



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:05:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

Yes I did mean nationality, bloody auto correct :-)

Molotov when you say infantry v tanks do you mean MBTs, IFVs or trucks and such?




They are just generic tanks I made in the editor - so unit type "Tank", tracked, 3 armor protection value.



CapnDarwin -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:34:45 PM)

3/1 is not a tank. Small arms and grenades can take down these lightly armored vehicles. My guess is most are disabled.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:40:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

3/1 is not a tank. Small arms and grenades can take down these lightly armored vehicles. My guess is most are disabled.


Hmm, the majority were destroyed rather than "fallen out."

The poor man's mod guide mentioned that each armor value is roughly equivalent to 15mm of armor, right? So this would put them at 45mm armor front/15mm armor side?



CapnDarwin -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:51:07 PM)

Yep, 15mm per point. Most infantry attacks will be against the flank at 1 hex. In hex they could get top rear shots. Can you post the scenario you are using? We can look at it and see what is going on. Maybe we have a bug in that area of the code.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 4:54:49 PM)

Thanks! Will clean it up and post it.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/13/2015 5:41:09 PM)

Sent you a PM with the files, Capn.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: Small arms and armor penetration (6/15/2015 4:19:54 AM)

So I did a couple more tests today - it looks like the issue is with flank armor of 1. So 3/1 and 4/1 (flank armor gets rounded down) vehicles are chewed up by rifles once they are adjacent. Once I went up to a 5/2, they were nearly invulnerable, though they still do rarely lose a vehicle to small arms.

So to put it into real world perspective - 3 and 4 front armor would be an early war (ww2) panzer III, or even an early T34. 5/2 is roughly a 1942 model T34.



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