RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (Full Version)

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Aurelian -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/29/2015 10:50:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman


quote:

ORIGINAL: KISSMEUFOOL!

quote:

Lots of European and other products don't reproduce Nazi flags and symbols.
We all remember what they were but accept an alternate German flag without complaining.

Most of us dont accept censorship so we're complaining anyway.


Anybody can complain and they do as we can see. My point is that I am NOT going to
criticise a European game company for choosing not to use Nazi symbology.
You can do that all you want since you have no consequences from your whinging
and nobody will change anything to please your idea of how you think it should be.
I won't complain about Confederate symbology in an historical setting nor worry
about its absence if someone choose not to portray it for PC reasons.
As far as that "We don't roll over so easy" comment.
You fool no one. Talk is cheap for internet hard guys.



Well not to put too fine a point in it, but if you want to sell your games in countries that outlaw Nazi symbols, you don't really have a choice.

Other than that, I do agree with you.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/29/2015 11:00:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

A couple questions for our European friends.... Can you own a game with a Nazi flag in it? Can you openly discuss the Nazi Regime including comments that may not be against said regime? Can you legally own a Nazi flag? Can you openly condemn a religion that is offensive and murderous? Or are you not permitted those freedoms?


"Europe" has many sovereign states. Only 27 in the EU. Each country has its own laws. There are some EU common laws (what you would call in the US Federal laws I guess).

As far as I know the only place where nazism IS a crime (having a flag included, demos, books) is Germany. IIRC WitE for example has no nazi flag but the Wehrmacht flag. With a nazi flag maybe the game would be banned in Germany (not sure though).

As for the rest, yes, freedom of speech is a basic right [;)] Now define freedom of speech, please. Me threatening to kill you, your wife, kids and dog...? Not happy with my words? I might retort hey that's freedom of speech, happy now? Hummm...

Where do you draw the line in the sand? Like it or not, this is a muddy affair.




aaatoysandmore -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/29/2015 11:32:20 PM)

Threats are against the law though. So while you CAN say that you will be arrested and prosecuted for it. [:D]




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/29/2015 11:41:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Threats are against the law though. So while you CAN say that you will be arrested and prosecuted for it. [:D]


You say it's threats, I might say it's mere freedom of speech... So you got some lawyers that found an *exception* aka a hole [:D]

And er... just for the sake of your "argument"... Has It ever occurred to you that maybe some (or many) black Americans perceive the aformentioned flag ([:D]) as a * t h r e a t *? [sm=scared0018.gif]




Perturabo -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/30/2015 12:23:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegspieler16

Funny, isn't it that Amazon/Ebay still have a lot of merchandise featuring emblems of racist groups like Black Panthers and LaRaza. And interestingly enough Nazi emblems and insignia are still available (You know, the people who actually committed genocide) This yet another example of the government and businesses rolling over in appeasement of a vocal minority. How long till it's the US flag that somebody finds "offensive". Sooner than you think if the cancer of liberalism isn't cut out of this country. I am joining and urge others who want to save what's left of the 1st amendment in this country to join the boycott of Amazon, Ebay Walmart and Apple.

Giant corporations that control access to majority of customers threatening to ruin game manufacturers for making non-PC stuff is more like fascism than liberalism. Though freedom to conduct business as they wish and lack of protection for small guys from discrimination could be interpreted as a liberal thing.




Kuokkanen -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/30/2015 3:43:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

A couple questions for our European friends.... Can you own a game with a Nazi flag in it? Can you openly discuss the Nazi Regime including comments that may not be against said regime? Can you legally own a Nazi flag? Can you openly condemn a religion that is offensive and murderous? Or are you not permitted those freedoms?

I have not been told there would be anything that prevents any of that in Finland. In last millennia was a time when nazi symbols were censored from imported & translated comics (from Thriller Picture Library & Commando), but that is long past.




rhondabrwn -> What Exactly IS Political Correctness? (6/30/2015 4:04:19 AM)

Political Correctness is not a law, no law has ever been passed to stop someone from using racist and bigoted terms and symbols to attack groups they don't like. No one will ban the Confederate flag or all the related paraphernalia sold in trashy souvenir stands everywhere.

Political Correctness is a measure of public opinion and attitudes which are constantly changing. Years ago, people could freely tell ethnic jokes about different races, religions, sexual preference etc and be the "life of the party". Gradually society came to see that as racist and bigoted and just hateful. People quit laughing... people turned away... people decided you were a "racist/bigoted a$$hole" but you still had/have the freedom to tell your jokes.

When I was a child, our household proudly displayed multiple American and Confederate flags on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, 4th of July etc as a tribute to the fallen warriors on both sides of our Civil War. We even made it into the local newspaper. We lived in a racially mixed neighborhood and no one had a problem with those flags. They recognized it as a historical tribute to our honored dead.

Would I do that today? Absolutely not... the Confederate flag has been appropriated by hate groups as a symbol or their hatred and racism towards Blacks and other minorities. It is a "White Power" symbol now. Many people now find it offensive and that number is growing in reaction to the controversy over flying that flag over state government grounds as an admitted response to the passage of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. The flags went up as a statement of support for segregation and racism as their state's status quo. They weren't flying before 1964 except at war memorials and graveyards (which is still appropriate in my opinion).

A critical mass has been reached where anyone driving around with a Rebel battle flag flying on their trucks (as happened in Dalton, Georgia this week) are going to be viewed, not as southern patriots, but as Redneck, White Trash, A$$holes. They will still have every right to display their symbols.. or wear their sheets... because we have that freedom. The reaction that people will have is what has changed and that isn't a matter of law... that's a matter of doing the right thing as a decent human being.

Some businesses will decide that it isn't profitable to offend a large percentage of their customer base and will remove merchandise from sale. That's their legal right. Other businesses will quite happily step in to sell Confederate flags and novelty items (people are getting rich right now over the hysteria to "get a flag before they are banned"). Apple had a kneejerk reaction to the possibility that perhaps their app store might contain some offensive games. It's possible... imagine the reaction if someone had found a racing game where trucks flying confederate battle flags scored points for hitting Black targets? I would hope someone would have caught something like that before it was accepted for distribution, but, mistakes happen... Apple was being overly cautious. Once they actually took a look at Ultimate General: Gettysburg and various Tiller ACW games, they realized they were over-reacting and restored them. Tempest in a teapot! There was never any possibility that major game producers would suddenly redesign their games and packaging to remove the flag. We're a niche hobby... people who play wargames are smart enough and adult enough to understand flag imagery as used in any historical content... books, maps, illustrations, wargames, movies etc etc.

What does look bad for our hobby is if we jump on board the campaign to "protect our rights" to fly the Rebel flag anywhere and anytime we want because a lot of those people... are not people that I want to be associated with :( We need to accept that displaying a Confederate flag is going to get associated with racism by a lot of people UNLESS... UNLESS it is used in an historical expression that is clearly NOT an expression of "White Power" or racism. That is the line we need to draw and draw clearly by condemning any use of Confederate symbols as a racist statement. It's going to be about educating people with sound historical facts and arguments, not tantrums and boycotts.

I've honestly been concerned about the tone of some of these threads and it's been bothering me for several days. Just finally had to put these thoughts out there. No offense intended to any individual.




operating -> RE: What Exactly IS Political Correctness? (6/30/2015 4:51:37 AM)

Hey ya know I'm from way up north in Boston, for the most part the confederate battle flag is seldom seen (in any form), often described as the Rebel flag and that was just about the extent of it, for most that was it: A Rebel flag. People who wanted to flaunt the Rebel flag on their jacket, pants, or as a poster, ect.. was being used as an expression of being a rebel (or to be rebellious), not so much that they believed in the Rebel Cause, or as statement about ethnicity. Yes it may be construed as an attitude, but hell, a lot of people have attitudes for all kinds of stuff, it's just the way it is. It's like some can use the "N" word, like our president did the other day in an interview, but Lord forbid if others used it in a public setting, they'd lose their jobs and or be ostracized, or both. My personal feeling is, that the Confederate flag was not about race, it was about a conflict, however little by little over the years, I have noticed Hollywood and the media make it more about race. When my forefathers went to war in the Union army they fought Rebels, they did not fight for any other reason than to fight Rebels.




warspite1 -> Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/30/2015 5:44:51 AM)

Hi Rhonda

Nice post, and I agree with the majority of it. It does raise a few questions - at least in my mind. Some of those questions just simply cannot be pursued because it would lead us down a very dark path and get this thread locked in double quick time. So I will steer clear of some of what ideally I want to say.

I agree with paragraph 2 (we have thankfully moved on and some things are just not acceptable anymore), but at the end you say that people are free to say what they want (albeit that people’s attitudes towards them may now be more enlightened). Is that true in the US today? For example in the UK we had a couple of instances (one sexism and one the N-word) where TV personalities lost their jobs for comments made – they thought they were private conversations off camera. Would that happen in the US? I assume TV executives there would take similar action?

Back to “the Flag” and some people are comparing it with the Swastika (and sadly some people love a good old America vs “Europe” fight – but the grown-ups here will ignore that nonsense). I guess the big difference is that the Swastika has been banned in some countries – and even where not actually banned, its use is extremely limited for good reason. However the Confederate Flag has not been banned and indeed flies proudly on one of the 50 states flags! It therefore seems strange that the use of the flag could be banned in an historical wargame because of what its very image (supposedly) represents, but not in general or official use! How on earth does that work? To repeat I, am far removed from day-to-day America and I have little idea (although have been asking) what Americans (north and south) generally think about the flag and its everyday use.

quote:

people who play wargames are smart enough and adult enough to
– I would disagree slightly there. I think wargamers are no different from any other cross section of society; the political, religious and moral beliefs are diverse. Sadly we have our racists like anywhere else.

Like you I am not advocating boycotts and tantrums. I certainly am advocating the position that this flag should continue to be used in historical wargames. If times move on and the American people ever decided that the use of the flag should be legally outlawed then that is a different matter altogether. Until then, I find the actions of corporate do-gooders who know nothing but how to grab a headline in order to make them appear oh so socially responsible, contemptible.




IainMcNeil -> RE: Time to STAND UP Gaming World: CSA, what next? (6/30/2015 9:15:16 AM)

Hi guys

some of this is fine but the potential for politics is too high so locking this up to avoid things turning nasty.




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