"Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea

"Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (Full Version)

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Fred98 -> "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 12:32:39 PM)
I have a unit with 28 movement points. I move a unit forward and uncover some unseen enemy units. I hit "undo" and my move is undone. And I still have 28 movement points. If a unit does any action, that provides information about an enemy unit or about a hex, undo should not be available.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 1:12:36 PM)
When playing a PBEM game a beep is given in the playback when an opposing player uses undo. Usually undo is one of those things that's agreed to be 'cheating' in PBEM. Perhaps some way to disable it in those games. In a single player game I and others really don't care what someone does.

Freyr Oakenshield -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 1:27:38 PM)
It wouldn't hurt if it was disabled by default in situations Joe 98 described. I once played PBEM against somebody who used "undone movements" as a legitimate way of recce... [:D]

sPzAbt653 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 2:39:23 PM)
Another good reason not to pbem [;)] To the original post - I don't want someone else arbitrarily deciding that I am cheating. And if I am cheating against Elmer then I am only cheating myself. Plus and besides, Elmer cheats too.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 7:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield It wouldn't hurt if it was disabled by default in situations Joe 98 described. I once played PBEM against somebody who used "undone movements" as a legitimate way of recce... [:D] Been there myself Martin. Exactly why those people run out of opponents. Steel Panthers used to be really easy for people to play part of a turn and if things turned out well save it, if not replay it. That was back in the Leadeaters days before Matrix bought and gutted the club.

Fred98 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 9:29:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Another good reason not to pbem [;)] So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI! .

Freyr Oakenshield -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 9:41:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Another good reason not to pbem [;)] So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI! . He was only teasing... [;)]

Fred98 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/29/2015 11:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster ....in a PBEM game a beep is given in the playback when an opposing player uses undo. ........undo is one of those things that's agreed to be 'cheating' in PBEM. I suspect the developer thought of my idea and found it too hard and instead used the beep. :) How about.... I move troops that start a long way from the from to another place a long way from the front. I realise my mistake and hit undo. Would the opponent still get a beep?

secadegas -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/30/2015 1:12:21 AM)
quote: Would the opponent still get a beep? IN PBEM mode everytime - no matter why or what - you use undo your opponent gets a beep on the playback. Undo isn't cheating. Sometimes your finger gets nervous and becomes faster than your brain. Around TOAW community it's for long established that it's always polite to justify to your PBEM opponent any use you make of undo. Like in most things use it but not abuse it.

SMK-at-work -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/30/2015 3:38:08 AM)
Who has time to run through 4-10,000 items of a FITE move?? I know some of my opponents have done........but if you're playing me you're safe!! Also a "beep" - really? I did not know that.....'cos I don't replay massive moves...and ALSO be3cause if I did I have ****ty speakers and I wouldn't have my sound on!! how about a reply option to "go to" any "undo"'s??

sPzAbt653 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/30/2015 5:14:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Another good reason not to pbem [;)] So, how do you play? Surely you do not play the AI! . He was only teasing... [;)] Say NO to PBEM's - Humans Suck !! And also say NO to PNG's - they are evil !

shunwick -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/30/2015 9:49:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Say NO to PBEM's - Humans Suck !! And also say NO to PNG's - they are evil ! Steve (no, the other one) agrees wholeheartedly with Steve (the other one) Best wishes, Steve

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (7/30/2015 7:06:21 PM)
I've never really cared when someone did an undo if no units near the front were used. No chance of recon there, eh? I have played people whose playback sounded like a garbage truck backing up. I do have problems with that. I think an option to undo the undo would be best.

walkra -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (8/13/2015 2:10:10 AM)
Hi. I think pbem must be played Like in chess. Piece touched, moved piece. I tend to making the mistake of destroying the bridges (because one of the first actions of the right to destroy bridges), but never use the undo button because I think that is how the mistakes made by officers in command of any unit. Undo should not exist (in PBEM).

Blind Sniper -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (9/7/2015 8:14:00 AM)
Something like in WitE where undo function is greyed out if you get some intel but you can use if you made a mistake in the rear, can be feasible?

Svejk1914 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/15/2015 4:23:04 PM)
There are plenty of games out already that have solved this problem. If your move uncovers previously unseen units or involves combat, you can't undo it. If it doesn't, you can. See Panzer Korps for example. No beeps required.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/16/2015 3:14:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oldwave There are plenty of games out already that have solved this problem. If your move uncovers previously unseen units or involves combat, you can't undo it. If it doesn't, you can. See Panzer Korps for example. No beeps required. Seriously? Knowing where your enemy is not is as good as knowing where they are. Undo against any opponent is cheating, no ifs ands or buts. If someone is so inclined as to need to cheat then why bother to play? Is it some mental condition that cannot tolerate losing a GAME? Nothing hinges on your winning or losing except some personal ego issue. Now, if you lose because a game is broken than that might be a little frustrating. But losing simply because the other guy did a better job than you shouldn't do anything more than teach you how to do better next time.

Fred98 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/16/2015 7:52:57 PM)
Lobster you did not read what he said. "Undo is cheating. If a move provides info of any sort such as learning the enemy is not there, the undo should be greyed out". On the other hand if I am moving about begin the lines and I select the wrong unit then obviously I should be able to undo. Many war games achieved this in the last century.

SMK-at-work -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 12:15:06 AM)
Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating.

larryfulkerson -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 12:32:10 AM)
quote: destroying bridges instead of digging in, I've lost count of the number of times I've meant to dig in a unit and blew the bridge instead. I wish they would move the "blow the bridge" option to the bottom of the menu list or something.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 3:06:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 Lobster you did not read what he said. "Undo is cheating. If a move provides info of any sort such as learning the enemy is not there, the undo should be greyed out". On the other hand if I am moving about begin the lines and I select the wrong unit then obviously I should be able to undo. Many war games achieved this in the last century. Please read the post I am replying to where Oldwave thinks you should get to undo if you don't see enemy units.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 3:06:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating. We are talking about moving units.

Karri -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 3:49:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster quote: ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating. We are talking about moving units. Well, rail movement comes to mind. I remember moving units and accidentally clicking on the wrong hex which might change the route to run through enemy ZOC. Undo should definitely be disabled if anything of recon value is found.

SMK-at-work -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 7:05:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster quote: ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work Not all undo is cheating - I am notorious (to myself) for destroying bridges instead of digging in, or vice versa, and as far as I'm concerned undoing those is not cheating. We are talking about moving units. Yes I know - but undo is a single function and if you turn it off for movement then you turn it off for everything. Perhaps one possibility is to have separate undo functions for movement and other things?

larryfulkerson -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/17/2015 7:12:55 PM)
quote: Perhaps one possibility is to have separate undo functions for movement and other things? Sorry to burst your bubble my friend, but I'm not sure it can be explained adequately to the computer programmer what is desired EXACTLY so that he produces the function you desire. I used to work as a computer programmer to external specifications and I know from experience that about 75% of the time the person describing the process leaves something out, embellishes something, asks what can't physically be done, or somehow misses the full description needed by the programmer and that the whole process becomes trial and error with at the very least two iterations. Please describe what function you'd like to see happen. EDIT: Are you talking about two different "undo" buttons?

SMK-at-work -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/19/2015 12:09:28 AM)
Yes - 2 undo buttons, and I am completely familiar with the need to give programmers clear specifications - but this is a general discussion, not a scoping document so no need to be a jerk.

larryfulkerson -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/19/2015 12:57:19 AM)
quote: so no need to be a jerk. I certainly didn't mean to come off as snarky. I apologize if I sounded that way. I'm mainly curious as to how TOAW would work with two undo buttons. I'm not sure Bob is going to go for that.

Lobster -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/19/2015 3:05:46 AM)
I've had unfortunate events happen also. The one I really dislike is accidentally clicking the map when you want to move an entrained unit. Usually it ends up going in the opposite direction I wanted it to. So I just say WTF and get on with the game. So yeah, we all have miss clicks. S*it happens. [:D] Oh, and the one that tops them all, accidentally clicking end of turn. [sm=00000007.gif][sm=00000018.gif] There is no undo for doing something that stupid. [:D]

Fred98 -> RE: "Undo" can be used for recon - not a good idea (12/20/2015 12:42:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson but I'm not sure it can be explained adequately to the computer programmer what is desired EXACTLY so that he produces the function you desire. Well, it has been done with other wargames dating back to 1998 so obviously it can be done.

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