why surrender? (Full Version)

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nilssone85 -> why surrender? (8/14/2015 12:28:08 PM)

Hi
I really never thought about this while playing the board game but in Mwif the question to surrender France came up.
Is there any benefit of doing this? Or why is the option there? I guess the question is valid for all nations...

Regards
Erik



AlbertN -> RE: why surrender? (8/14/2015 2:29:08 PM)

If you do not want to be Vichy'ed, want to keep the French Fleet as Free France, you surrender!
This is one of the examples for why you could want to surrender.

In case of China, it is only a way to get some of the US Entry Chits (remember, Surrender is half of the value of the Conquest though).
If China is badly mauled and probably useless for much longer term, one can think to surrender it so to have these US Entry chit kicking in (and bring in sooner the USA). Is it better to keep a 1-2 production per turn China, or to Gear Up USA 2 turns earlier maybe?

Soviets, I sort of think it's the same concept. But otherwise I cannot really see a good reason to surrender the URSS.



paulderynck -> RE: why surrender? (8/14/2015 5:36:23 PM)

The main considerations are the ones you say. Sometimes the Germans get into position to install Vichy and don't realize the conditions for surrender are also met. Since Vichy declaration comes before surrender, they have to goof if they want Vichy. OTOH if they appear to want to keep going into Spain to attack Gibraltar, you should be fighting for every inch of the French Pyrenees.

In my current game, China lost all production and was down to on factory, but could not produce anything. Finally they surrendered just prior to Japan being ready to DoW the USA. This was a problem for Japan because Japan was not at war with anyone else and so reverted to neutrality, and all her Militia and Reserves were removed from the map to the Reserve Pool.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: why surrender? (8/15/2015 12:36:25 AM)

Way, way back, I heard of someone pulling the following trick:

Germany attacks France, clobbers them. Could easily conquer with another few impulses of attacking, but doesn't. Germany then DoWs Spain, and shoves their way through the Pyranees. THEN they install Vichy, now that they've secured a beachhead in Spain, netting them at least partial control of the French colonial empire.


And, as Paul says upthread, China is the other country that sometimes surrenders, if they're completely crippled, for USE and Japanese not being at war effects.



France should surrender in a case like that, at the very least force him to conquer you properly.



Joseignacio -> RE: why surrender? (8/17/2015 10:41:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Way, way back, I heard of someone pulling the following trick:

Germany attacks France, clobbers them. Could easily conquer with another few impulses of attacking, but doesn't. Germany then DoWs Spain, and shoves their way through the Pyranees. THEN they install Vichy, now that they've secured a beachhead in Spain, netting them at least partial control of the French colonial empire.


And, as Paul says upthread, China is the other country that sometimes surrenders, if they're completely crippled, for USE and Japanese not being at war effects.



France should surrender in a case like that, at the very least force him to conquer you properly.


Didn't get this. What was the GE advantage of doing so? A wider front to cross the Pyrenees? I didn't get what has this to do with the French colonial empire... :)



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: why surrender? (8/17/2015 1:36:48 PM)

Major cost of Vichy is that if you do want to go into Spain, you're either stuck trying to fight through a 1 hex wide corridor, or face the double U.S. entry penalty by creating Vichy and then collapsing it. If you're completely uninterested in attacking Spain, Vichying is actually better than incomplete conquest, it's faster, a lot of the colonies are under control of the puppet government instead of all goign to the Allies, you even get a little trickle of production out of the occupied zone, factories as well as just resources.


This whole "attack Spain and then install Vichy once you have your beachhead" nonsense is a way of having your cake and eating it too, and I seem to remember the surrender rule was instituted to stop shenanigans like it, maybe even this particular trick.



Joseignacio -> RE: why surrender? (8/18/2015 7:57:38 AM)

Thanks. [:)]



brian brian -> RE: why surrender? (8/20/2015 3:46:10 AM)

There is another situation where France should clearly surrender. That is when Germany is heading towards a Mediterranean strategy.

If they pass on installing Vichy their first chance after taking Paris, this is a good possibility. 3 of the remaining French factory cities the Germans need for Incomplete Conquest of France are not simple hexes to take - Vichy, Lyon, and Toulouse. Obviously both sides will focus on Toulouse, but the French will likely not just give away the other factory cities.

Let's say the Germans win the battle for Toulouse but the French are still holed up somewhere else, most likely Lyon. In that case the French should surrender right away as there is a good chance they don't hold any other coastal cities. And without a coastal city, their fleet probably can't trace to a valid Supply Source.

Meanwhile there will likely be a raging naval war in the Mediterranean as the Axis attempt to reach Morocco and/or possibly invade Spain amphibiously. And then the combat capabilities of the French Fleet might be very important to the Allies and it could well be better to give up on tying down a few Axis ground forces in a few hold-out French cities. Without a valid supply path, naval units in port can't re-organize at the end of the turn, among a few other penalties.


On the other hand, you can play the Allies a little more aggressively. A simple initial move is to rail a French factory (or two) to Bordeaux the impulse after the first German unit enters France. This doesn't make any difference for conquest, but can keep French production going during the post-Paris denouement of the battle for France, which can be a struggle for the Germans if bad weather sets in and France can last longer than either side expects. The BEF can also be used to hold Rouen in a similar manner, where they can enjoy a bit of air-cover from the UK, and of course the Defensive Shore Bombardment optional helps both ploys tremendously. With a coastal city in hand and a factory city, the French can keep fighting.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: why surrender? (8/21/2015 4:13:26 AM)

Just warning you, conquest (and things like city penalties to attack) are concerned with the printed factories, not wherever the factories have to be right now. If you rail the Marseilles and Vichy factories to Bordeaux, and the Germans are going for that incomplete conquest, they still need to take Marseilles and Vichy and they still don't need to take Bordeaux.




brian brian -> RE: why surrender? (8/24/2015 1:57:24 PM)

Yes, which is why I mentioned "doesn't make any difference". The most usual combo that can make in it worthwhile to keep France fighting is a strongly held Bordeaux and Lyon. (Fighting hard for Toulouse should be automatic. A CW BP loan at the right time can produce a really good French ART unit that can really add to the German's difficulty in attacking Toulouse). Holding Rouen accomplishes the same thing - a printed factory and a coastal city. The Germans might keep deploying their best stuff on to the south expecting the BEF to just evacuate and give them Rouen for free.


It can be worthwhile to surrender the United Kingdom in a rare game and yes the Allies can return from that if US Entry has been accelerated enough by Japan attacking the CW simultaneously. If Incomplete Conquest is an inevitability it can be worthwhile to surrender that Home Country and re-set the Force Pools and get on with things but it is probably going to be a tough call either way.



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