Turn 47: 3 – 9 June 1944 (Full Version)

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loki100 -> Turn 47: 3 – 9 June 1944 (11/25/2015 7:50:03 AM)

Turn 47: 3 – 9 June 1944

Seems that the new arrivals are very keen to escape their gated beach side resort

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/3955/4QE8xN.jpg[/image]

well up to a point

[IMG]http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/7383/1fLygt.jpg[/IMG]

Their new found assertiveness even affects their behaviour in Italy

[IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/8338/TKpTvz.jpg[/IMG]

Still, 8 Air had a pretty bad week trying to bomb the V2 factories on the Baltic

[IMG]http://img905.imageshack.us/img905/2303/7oxqfn.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/3930/590AwM.jpg[/IMG]
(shows some selected air types)

VP score moves briefly in my favour, - to be expected given the outbreak of some fighting

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/6765/jgF51M.jpg[/IMG]

Anyway, an attempt is made to hold back the horde till the new hotels are built

[IMG]http://img908.imageshack.us/img908/6071/EN4YMP.jpg[/IMG]



loki100 -> Turn 48: 10-16 June 1944 (11/30/2015 1:21:03 PM)

Turn 48: 10-16 June 1944

The recent influx of British and American tourists leads to unseemly outbreaks of violence – but fortunately so far most of France is spared the consequences

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/6858/m62sFO.jpg[/image]

In Italy, German troops bravely defend the Uffizi from similar touristic excesses

[IMG]http://img633.imageshack.us/img633/695/yG7hyI.jpg[/IMG]
[1]

In the air the Luftwaffe 'meet and greet' service continues to be quite effective

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/8892/mwRUxh.jpg[/IMG]
(shows selected air types)
[2]

In France, an attempt is made to restore order ...

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/6100/cDZqrq.jpg[/IMG]


[1] Although a very important statue did lose both its arms
[2] Unfortunately 15 Air did not appear – pity as a really special surprise had been laid on for them



loki100 -> Turn 49: 17-23 June 1944 (12/1/2015 5:57:19 AM)

Turn 49: 17-23 June 1944

Allies make gains in France but the line still holds in Italy. In France I want to hold onto Le Havre as long as I can in order to limit their resupply options.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/2906/beUWzm.jpg[/image]

VP situation sort of in my favour due to the recent fighting but I've paid a high price for mismanaging the EF situation.

[IMG]http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/4646/82U19u.jpg[/IMG]

I'm still reasonably happy with my defense of the Reich but slowly my 'pilots killed' is eating into my ability to keep the fighter squadrons using only trained pilots.

[IMG]http://img633.imageshack.us/img633/5303/jB0rjv.jpg[/IMG]



KWG -> RE: Turn 49: 17-23 June 1944 (12/1/2015 6:32:54 PM)

Good attack by 1SS Corps et al. in the mud. A seldom seen concentration of German armor. The rain must have lessen the impact of Allied aircraft on your ground forces but not on the Luftwaffe.



loki100 -> RE: Turn 49: 17-23 June 1944 (12/1/2015 6:48:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Good attack by 1SS Corps et al. in the mud. A seldom seen concentration of German armor. The rain must have lessen the impact of Allied aircraft on your ground forces but not on the Luftwaffe.


he also made it easy for me ... they were mostly sitting there waiting (I think I only moved up 2 divisions), so it was one of those situations where interdiction is not crippling.

unfortunately that was the last time he's made that mistake for a while [;)]



loki100 -> Turn 50: 24 – 30 June 1944 (12/3/2015 7:27:05 PM)

Turn 50: 24 – 30 June 1944

Now those of you paying attention will recall I mentioned I wanted to keep hold of Le Havre for as long as possible to deny it as a supply source. I actually think that is a problem to invading in this area is the lack of decent ports.

In a different game I've made a similar mistake when landing to the east of Dieppe, and while I've broken out, its a struggle to find some useful small ports that really ease building up supply capacity.

Ok, well my troops seemed to have got the message:

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/1084/JeA8Fm.jpg[/image]

or not

[IMG]http://img633.imageshack.us/img633/4935/WuobsI.jpg[/IMG]

damn.

And just to add to the misery, the Uffizi is now banning German tourists

[IMG]http://img908.imageshack.us/img908/2747/oPjv64.jpg[/IMG]

Here's the VP situation. Bright spot for me is the relatively low score for strategic bombing.

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/2619/FhrSgC.jpg[/IMG]

So in France I redeployed behind the Seine. Hope to keep the allies bottled up for a little bit longer.

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/1446/3WF7ou.jpg[/IMG]

As you can see Normandy is now empty – almost everyone from there has been sent to fight the Russians. Now in a few turns, the Allies are going to bomb the local farm animals and wild life – clearly the depraved acts of 15 Air are spreading to other parts of their airforce.



loki100 -> Turn 51: 1 – 7 July 1944 (12/8/2015 7:49:17 AM)

Turn 51: 1 – 7 July 1944

Last turn my new master plan, was to hold the Allies to the north of the Seine. That lasted, oh, ... not very long.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/4914/IwmD5K.jpg[/image]

Just to make things worse, the British bombed the zoo in Duisberg, killing off some of the local Panther breeding stock

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/4092/e0yuk2.jpg[/IMG]

Given the other discussion, here is the loss table so far:

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/6373/Hgt8F3.jpg[/IMG]

My crew losses are going up as I am taking more and more squadrons off 'trained pilots'. Instead that is being reserved for my new Me-262s.

VP situation

[IMG]http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/2658/bMA935.jpg[/IMG]

East Front is coming back under control but I've clearly paid a high price for mismanaging the situation. I guess a second cost will be an early end to the war with a further bonus for the Allies at that stage.

Anyway, I decide for the moment to try and contain the allies. Their airpower is dropping a bit (I guess units are having to rest) and I want to limit their capacity to expand their supply network.

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/9034/Fj89Nb.jpg[/IMG]



loki100 -> Turn 52: 8-14 July 1944 (12/14/2015 7:42:52 AM)

Turn 52: 8-14 July 1944

Well this turn opened with a shock ... not so much the Allied breakout over the Seine, more the VP shift.

My immediate thought was that Uncle Joe was back on the vodka and had retired to a dacha in the Urals?

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/9606/JC4T1O.jpg[/image]

My next thought was that 15 Air had bombed the wrong target again

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/9322/96Q4D2.jpg[/IMG]

As opposed to their usual performance.

But no:

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/3584/Mphuss.jpg[/IMG]

We'd both forgotten about the beachhead penalty. Now this happened by mistake, in the last turn I was looking for a chance to counterattack and took back 2 empty hexes, realised the defences were too strong so fell back to my start lines.

Seems this had dropped the Allies below 10 hexes on the critical turn. All very unplanned so we've agreed to basically ignore the consequences.

In the meantime my disastrous handling of the EF box continues to have more immediate consequences.

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/9537/0U9snG.jpg[/IMG]

Not much I can do now but send as many new units east and ensure that only units in the east are on refit.

Back in France …

[IMG]http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/4215/fuixs8.jpg[/IMG]



loki100 -> Turn 53: 15-21 July 1944 (12/16/2015 7:42:52 AM)

Turn 53: 15-21 July 1944

Main event this turn is the arrival of a second wave of holiday makers in Normandy. Not shown, but their arrival was preceeded by a massive bombing campaign clearly aimed at the local cute and cuddly wildlife.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/2581/zmbJNb.jpg[/image]

Fortunately, the kind hearted German army had removed them, plus the farm animals and Calvados stocks to somewhere much safer.

I'm also assuming that was the last major set of landings in northern Europe this summer.

Well maybe not that much safer:

[IMG]http://img905.imageshack.us/img905/5083/yR6rq1.jpg[/IMG]

Here's the EF box, trying desparately to bring it back under control after neglecting the situation for most of the game.

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/8055/Yy9qZl.jpg[/IMG]

Overall, for the moment, I want to try and keep the Allies pinned down where they are. My rough idea is to retreat to Belgium in the Autumn, defend the approaches to the Rhine over the early winter and try to limit the scope for any crossings in the critical period when the river is frozen.



loki100 -> Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/17/2015 7:52:18 PM)

Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944

Not that much happened this turn – that is you count losing about 25% of France as 'not much happened'. For the moment, I'm going to try and hold the line of the Seine. Basic goal is to deny too many city VP (especially for Paris) for as long as I can.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/237/CiJDxG.jpg[/image]

Air losses so far:

[IMG]http://img908.imageshack.us/img908/9445/c3xQhi.jpg[/IMG]

And here are some of the main pools etc. No real shortages – in fact I'd rather like some of that manpower to appear on the map – preferably off fighting the Soviets.

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/3597/rZg4u2.jpg[/IMG]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/17/2015 8:34:40 PM)

Almost to easy. Is Spam invasion back after the last nerf?

As if they could do that, really?

Just disband LB's they are usless and hold fighters back by central Germany.

vs a good WA players its the only option vs a poor player sure they can do
some damage, but not vs someone that knows the current rulesets

Only things saving u is his lack of understanding BH ruleset heheheh

really kinda funny over all, nice AAR read of not what to do for both sides [:)]



Seminole -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 2:07:25 AM)

quote:

Almost to easy. Is Spam invasion back after the last nerf?


I see him having used a total of 8 Amphibs. The first was a 3 site invasion, then 5 in the follow up attack at Normandy.
Given the date it looks like he decided to forego or delay Dragoon.
Just presume from the aftermath the strategy was to draw reserves (which it did in addition to the neglected EF), and then land a larger force.
How does this constitute 'spam invasion'?

quote:

As if they could do that, really?


Why not?



loki100 -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:22:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

...

Only things saving u is his lack of understanding BH ruleset heheheh

really kinda funny over all, nice AAR read of not what to do for both sides [:)]


I realise this is a million miles from your mindset but I have no problems putting up an AAR that shows my own mistakes and acknowledges them to be mistakes. Can be quite useful for people learning the game. The AGEOD forums have several of mine (well shared with a gaming colleague) in which I got absoluterly stuffed - very useful for someone coming to grips with that particular game. I don't feel the urge to have a meaningless win ratio in my signature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Almost to easy. Is Spam invasion back after the last nerf?


I see him having used a total of 8 Amphibs. The first was a 3 site invasion, then 5 in the follow up attack at Normandy.
Given the date it looks like he decided to forego or delay Dragoon.
Just presume from the aftermath the strategy was to draw reserves (which it did in addition to the neglected EF), and then land a larger force.
How does this constitute 'spam invasion'?


no idea how Pelton got to that claim, think anything and everything is being fitted into his 'game is broken' narrative at the moment. My suspicion is that Dave believed I was going to hang on to NW France. At worst this gives him more supply entry points and he'll clear out the Normandy/Brittany ports which will help his overall supply position. I personally would have kept something back for Marseilles etc. In a couple of my games I've found that to be only second to Antwerp in terms of overall supply value.




whoofe -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 1:13:16 PM)

I am enjoying this AAR

I do have a question though. seems the allied player did a reasonably good job keeping U-boat VPs down, but also looks like he has ignored V-weapon VPs?




carlkay58 -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 2:00:54 PM)

whoofe, it is relatively easy to keep the UBoat VPs down but the VWeapon VPs are much harder. The VW VPs are much higher and the factory sites are spread out over all of Germany and Austria so are harder to hit. Allied strategic recon has a hard time reaching the VW factories so it is easy for the Allies to think the factory is destroyed while it is actually fully operational.



whoofe -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 2:36:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

whoofe, it is relatively easy to keep the UBoat VPs down but the VWeapon VPs are much harder. The VW VPs are much higher and the factory sites are spread out over all of Germany and Austria so are harder to hit. Allied strategic recon has a hard time reaching the VW factories so it is easy for the Allies to think the factory is destroyed while it is actually fully operational.



gotcha. I suppose capturing territory helps keep these VPs lower as you go though?



loki100 -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 4:32:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: whoofe


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

whoofe, it is relatively easy to keep the UBoat VPs down but the VWeapon VPs are much harder. The VW VPs are much higher and the factory sites are spread out over all of Germany and Austria so are harder to hit. Allied strategic recon has a hard time reaching the VW factories so it is easy for the Allies to think the factory is destroyed while it is actually fully operational.



gotcha. I suppose capturing territory helps keep these VPs lower as you go though?



that is vital as it clears out the launch pads in NE France. There are a lot of them and they are very easy to repair. I think this mechanism is basically set up to prevent an allied player bombing to a marginal victory (and boring both players to death). Its very hard to keep the V-weapons supressed and from 1944 bombing yields less VP/level of damage so its harder to really push the overall total



KWG -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 6:40:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: whoofe


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

whoofe, it is relatively easy to keep the UBoat VPs down but the VWeapon VPs are much harder. The VW VPs are much higher and the factory sites are spread out over all of Germany and Austria so are harder to hit. Allied strategic recon has a hard time reaching the VW factories so it is easy for the Allies to think the factory is destroyed while it is actually fully operational.



gotcha. I suppose capturing territory helps keep these VPs lower as you go though?



that is vital as it clears out the launch pads in NE France. There are a lot of them and they are very easy to repair. I think this mechanism is basically set up to prevent an allied player bombing to a marginal victory (and boring both players to death). Its very hard to keep the V-weapons supressed and from 1944 bombing yields less VP/level of damage so its harder to really push the overall total




If I played just for VPs, as Allies I would get just above the minimal hexs in Italy/France - dig in. All while bombing only the strategic targets that give VPs and could probably get a major allied victory.



Seminole -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:12:16 PM)

quote:

If I played just for VPs, as Allies I would get just above the minimal hexs in Italy/France - dig in. Then bomb only the strategic targets that give VPs and could probably get a major allied victory.


I'm dubious of that, but presumably you could test that strategy against the AI pretty easily.
You're giving up a lot of VP by not taking cities.
Comparing my first match against S2Tanker, at turn 50 he had just over 120 VP from holding cities for the game:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/cBbbQv4.png[/image]

I had forced his invasions back into the sea, and stymied his campaign to seize the islands in the Med. When he was earning 4 points a turn was when I allowed the Foggia cauldron to form.

Compare that to Loki in this match, where he has given up well over 300 at the same point:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/VBphfLr.jpg[/image]

And it losing much more per turn.
I think it would be expensive in terms of opportunity cost for the Allies to forego the points from holding cities, as well as the VP associated with overrunning V-weapon and strategic bombing sites. Surely more than you'd save in casualty VP, isn't it?



KWG -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:20:00 PM)

TRUE, you could not do it with 1 bombing and -11 uboot/v-weapons VPs a week



From what know and may not be aware of changes in '45. Before my invasion of France I was moving VPs in my favor the majority of turns even while taking losses in US and other casualties in Italy. Remember all them wasteful land attacks I was making?
I could maximize strategic AF to minimize flak/fighter losses.




As I said a major victory probably/maybe, A Victory maybe very so.


Iam little confused on this ...
The Axis already gets the maxed city VPs from the start, so is that not already factored in?



whoofe -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:21:11 PM)

isn't the end game VPs worth quite a bit as well? so if you capture berlin quite early its a big bonus and capture berlin quite late its a big penalty?



KWG -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:23:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whoofe

isn't the end game VPs worth quite a bit as well? so if you capture berlin quite early its a big bonus and capture berlin quite late its a big penalty?





Not sure onVps changes by year. Are there big LAST TURN bonuses?



KWG -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 7:31:20 PM)

quote:

I'm dubious of that, but presumably you could test that strategy against the AI pretty easily.


Did close to this in beta last year, never played it all the way. Getting over 10vp a turn a lot of times. Bomb only Vp targets.
Got real good with my Air Forces in the strategic war and wiping the Luftwaffe from the skys.


OOOOppps Sorry about the thread hijack[&o]



loki100 -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/18/2015 10:47:13 PM)

There is a bonus for ending the game early - whether its the Allies or the Soviets that grab Berlin. But if the Allies do this, you gain the VPs for the city as well.

About bombing VPs and victory. I'm not sure its feasible in PBEM? But I think you can do it vs the AI. In my current AI game I have enough strategic bombing VPs in the bank (and adding to them per term) that even in the usual fierce post invasion of France period, I'm pretty much keeping the VP situation neutral.

Would be a bit disappointing if an Allied player could win that way, land say in Normandy, build a safe perimeter and just play out the rest of the game. Seems pretty tedious.



Seminole -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/19/2015 1:49:55 AM)

quote:

Did close to this in beta last year, never played it all the way. Getting over 10vp a turn a lot of times. Bomb only Vp targets.
Got real good with my Air Forces in the strategic war and wiping the Luftwaffe from the skys.



How far did you play it?
Reason I ask is because of the growing strategic bombing points divisor:

SBP Date adjustment divisor is as follows:
§§ 1943: 6
§§ Jan-Jun 1944: 9
§§ Jul-Dec 1944: 12
§§ 1945: 18

And by not invading beyond beachheads you'd forego the advantage of overrunning factories:

"If the Allied player captures cities in Germany (or for oil/fuel/synthetic fuel, cities in areas controlled by the Axis player at start), then SBPs will be scored as if the eligible factories in that city were at 100 percent damage. If the city is captured by the Soviets, no points will be scored for the factories."

Couple that with the demands of the U-boat and V-weapon campaigns it would be interesting to see if you could in fact maximize VP from the skies alone.

If I were the German player and decided this is what you were trying to do all engineers would be assigned my most valuable cities, flak would be concentrated, and I'd still press on the corners of whatever beachhead you tried to put in to deny you escaping losing at least some points still to combat.



loki100 -> Turn 55: 27 July – 4 August 1944 (12/20/2015 2:47:31 PM)

Turn 55: 27 July – 4 August 1944

Turn opened with the fall of Cherbourg. Fortunately Rouen was made of sterner stuff

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/5518/Wn02Lx.jpg[/image]

In the air I'm still inflicting decent losses but now I'm using untrained pilots for most fighter groups, my own losses are high.

[IMG]http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/874/RsQ48Q.jpg[/IMG]

East Front is still not under control. Think I've managed to set off a serious problem with neglecting it for so long.

[IMG]http://img903.imageshack.us/img903/2124/EIlNND.jpg[/IMG]

VP score

[IMG]http://img905.imageshack.us/img905/8397/5dGkoY.jpg[/IMG]

Anyway to celebrate (not sure what), I actually managed to make an attack. Even bigger surprise was it worked.

[IMG]http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/9913/jLxquP.jpg[/IMG]



Q-Ball -> RE: Turn 55: 27 July – 4 August 1944 (12/20/2015 10:18:19 PM)

The Allied player can win a minor victory without leaving France. If you conduct a good strategic bombing campaign, and secure the 10 hex beachhead, you can't lose really, even if you are basically pinned against the French shore into 1945.

I am playing a PBEM as Germany where the Allies are stuck in Normandy and Brittany, it's Jan 1945, and it's trending to a 450+ VP Allied victory



carlkay58 -> RE: Turn 55: 27 July – 4 August 1944 (12/21/2015 12:06:48 AM)

Being the Allied player in the game vs Q-Ball I would say it probably won't be 450+ but it should still be a Minor Allied Victory. I made some major mistakes and then lost control of all of my air forces for four turns due to a data corruption that Helpless was able to correct. Unfortunately it happened during a major effort and I lost about 150 VPs in those four turns due to Allied Losses. Not to say that the lack of air forces were the only reason I lost those points, but I had to withdraw from a southern France invasion that I probably could have kept going with any type of air support.

Yes, the primary source of my VPs have been in Bombing VPs but I would not have the minor victory if the Germans had not fallen back into northern Italy. The amount of City VPs that were freed up in southern and central Italy are about 20% of the total City VPs in the game and have yielded more than 300 VPs during the game.



Harrybanana -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/22/2015 12:33:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

There is a bonus for ending the game early - whether its the Allies or the Soviets that grab Berlin. But if the Allies do this, you gain the VPs for the city as well.


Playing with EF off there is a bonus if the Allies can capture Berlin early. But in my opinion with equal opponents that will never happen. In my current game with QBall I have advanced more or less historical, but unlike historical he did not waste his strength in December 44 with a Bulge type offensive. I will be lucky to capture even the Ruhr by Wars end. Playing with EF off I do not believe there is any penalty or bonus when the Russians capture Berlin on the first May turn.

quote:

About bombing VPs and victory. I'm not sure its feasible in PBEM? But I think you can do it vs the AI. In my current AI game I have enough strategic bombing VPs in the bank (and adding to them per term) that even in the usual fierce post invasion of France period, I'm pretty much keeping the VP situation neutral.

Would be a bit disappointing if an Allied player could win that way, land say in Normandy, build a safe perimeter and just play out the rest of the game. Seems pretty tedious.


We will have to stay tuned to Carlkay's game against QBall to see if the Allies can win that way. Though in fairness to Carlkay that was not his original intent.



loki100 -> RE: Turn 54: 22 – 28 July 1944 (12/24/2015 3:22:10 PM)

in general I'm not convinced that the VP situation is wrong at the moment. Broadly you could argue the real war ended in either a draw or an allied marginal victory ... and that was with a number of significant German mistakes such as holding in Normandy too long and then the Ardennes Offensive. From the perspective of their leadership this made sense but if your goal was to minimise your 'defeat' then they are clearly things a player won't do.



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