Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (Full Version)

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etsadler -> Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 4:14:13 PM)

There are a lot of different ways to look at the various options WiF gives you. I have recently been thinking on the two Russian options to take Bessarabia and the Finnish Boarder Lands.

Both potentially cost a US entry chit. What does Russia or the Western Allies in general, get for this potential cost? I have concluded, not much, perhaps even to the point of "nothing".

The Finnish Boarder Lands might be worthwhile if Russia is planning to conquer Finland after war with Germany begins. But I find that I never have any units to devote to that idea. As a result I have stopped considering demanding the Boarder Lands as a useful thing to do.

With Bessarabia there are at least 2 cities to act as speed bumps for the eventual Axis invasion. But other than that, what is the use of claiming Bessarabia? The possibility that Bulgaria might be a Russian ally? I've never had that happen, and it doesn't seem to have much usefulness (but here I am aware that I may well be missing something).

kind of like Germany declaring war on Norway, these actions seem like a historic event that there is not much benefit for following the historical script in the game.

Thoughts?



Orm -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 4:30:45 PM)

Reducing the number of resources traded to Germany is something. Building Soviet units for those resources is better than if they go to German factories. [;)]

And the cost for reducing the number of resources traded is low if you get Germany to give up the Borderlands and, or, Bessarabia. And if it costs you US Entry Chits then you get to knock the country out before Germany attacks USSR.

Edit: Bessarabia also have the advantage of providing USSR with a forward supply source.



AlbertN -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 4:39:55 PM)

I agree Bessarbia is a no brainer; as long as the game is with Oil.

The Soviets simply can bomb into oblivion Ploesti if the Axis player refuses to secede Bessarabia.

For Finland, that is somehow easy - as long as you do it in Summer '40 or so, wait for Germany to be well busy in France, don't do "Winter War" and hammer the Finns hardly.

That's how I think at least. No need to expose your forces with a -4 because of Snow, since the Soviets are short of Winter Geared units that early in the war.

For Germany and Norway that is just how game is designed, alas.
The resource there is not worth the effort - since the planes and units you need to commit there are needed in France already, the Brits can easily reinforce and contest the sea zone, aided with planes based in UK, and so forth. And even if Germany conquer Norway in the end of the day they'd just add more coasts to be invaded later on, and a solid platform for planes to the Allies once their shipping would just ensure they'd overwhelm any German units defending Norway.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 6:40:04 PM)

For Bessarabia:

First off, it buys space. Sure, it's only a hex or two wide, but if you take Chinesau, that's a hex that will provide a ZoC, can't be knocked out of supply, has to be assaulted, and covers Odessa. It'll buy you an impulse for that big rush when you badly need time.


Finnish border lands: First off, there's always the chance that you'll get to conquer Finland. THat secures your northern flank, makes Leningrad almost unassailable.

And even if you can't take Helsinki, you'll almost certainly push the front line away from Leningrad, and you can cut off that Petsamo resource fairly easily.


And as others have said, each claim you make means one less resource for Germany and one more resource for the USSR. If you claim one of them on the first turn, between S/O 39 and M/J 41, you'll have "created" (actually a bit less due to rounding issues) 4.5 Soviet BP, and cost the Germans 8 BP. That's fairly significant. I usually do both border options as soon as I feel strong enough to beat up the respective countries I'm bullying. As a practical matter, that's usually S/O 39 for Bessarabia, and M/J or J/A 40 for Finland.




Centuur -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 7:43:25 PM)

Bessarabia is a "must do", especially in an oil game in the first turn. The two extra Soviet supply sources are very important and if Adolf is a fool, you might be able to bomb Ploesti into rubble. The Finnish Borderlands however depends on a couple of things...

First: Are the Japanese making toast of the Chinese? Than the Soviets needs to attack Manchuria. You can usually see in M/J or J/A 1940 if the Japanese will have a good shot at conquering China or not. If they are, the Soviets, if they don't go for Manchuria, needs to be prepared for a war with the Finns, because Germany would be a fool to allow the USSR to build a force in Siberia in that case and will want to get losses on Soviet units. If Japan is doing poor against the Chinese, claim the Borderlands (but usually Germany would give them to the USSR in that case).

Second: what is the USSR going to do about Persia? It gives the USSR another port through which Allied resources might be send towards them (or the oil points out of coastal hexes in Persia can be send to the USSR using only two CW convoys). And Iraq? Another 2 oil. To me, that seems to be a better place to relocate some forces to after Bessarabia. Economically speaking, that region is very important to the USSR...




Numdydar -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 9:55:32 PM)

To stop Russia from taking over Finland can't Germany just put a German unit by itself in Helsinki? Russia is prevented from attacking German units as peacekeepers right?



paulderynck -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/6/2015 10:26:26 PM)

Not sure if it's been fixed yet in MWiF but by the rules you can attack any unit from the other side that's in a country you are at war with. But the German units cannot attack Russians, they can only defend. They can, however, defend themselves with their own air units against Russian ground strikes and land attacks and they can benefit from German naval Defensive Shore Bombardment if that option is selected.

So German peacekeepers can be a tough nut to attack, but they can be attacked.



brian brian -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/7/2015 1:05:00 AM)

A Top 3 way the Allies lose the game is for Russia to attack Japan early on.

It is an interesting dynamic when the Russians don't claim Bessarabia and you can consider that. But ultimately in a 1941 Barbarossa it is all about getting the factories out and seizing Bessarabia can get you one - IF the Germans cross the original Russian border an impulse before blocking the Odessa rail link. But then Bessarabia becomes original Russia Home Country so that will usually be the case. As the Germans, I do like to threaten Sevastopol with the Fallschirmjaegers deployed in Rumania, so....

The Finnish Borderlands are very valuable for a reason far outside the defense of Leningrad. If the Axis invade the USSR with a massive force in 1941, the Russians will need everything they can get from the West, up to an including a commitment of the Alexander HQ-I and some CW infantry. But mostly that will be economic aid through every route possible, including Murmansk and Archangel.

The best way to get the maximum amounts of that aid is to move Russian factories to Murmansk, and if the Finnish ski divisions block that rail line quickly, this can't be done.

I think it is better for the Russians when the Germans pull the trigger on war with Finland. Then the Russians can clean out northern Finland while bluffing a strong drive on Helsinki - the Finns will be so far from that rail line it is sure that 2 factories can reach Murmansk. It would be nice to take Helsinki and seal this front completely, but that would generally be tough against a good Axis opponent - the type that keeps a couple MIL and/or GARR on the Baltic Coast at all times ready to intervene in Finland, making it very difficult for the Red Army to grind all the way to the Finnish capital.



Joseignacio -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/7/2015 11:31:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I agree Bessarbia is a no brainer; as long as the game is with Oil.

The Soviets simply can bomb into oblivion Ploesti if the Axis player refuses to secede Bessarabia.

For Finland, that is somehow easy - as long as you do it in Summer '40 or so, wait for Germany to be well busy in France, don't do "Winter War" and hammer the Finns hardly.

That's how I think at least. No need to expose your forces with a -4 because of Snow, since the Soviets are short of Winter Geared units that early in the war.

For Germany and Norway that is just how game is designed, alas.
The resource there is not worth the effort - since the planes and units you need to commit there are needed in France already, the Brits can easily reinforce and contest the sea zone, aided with planes based in UK, and so forth. And even if Germany conquer Norway in the end of the day they'd just add more coasts to be invaded later on, and a solid platform for planes to the Allies once their shipping would just ensure they'd overwhelm any German units defending Norway.


Can't GE peacekeepers fighters prevent it?



Extraneous -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/7/2015 2:47:26 PM)

Strategic bombing would be directed at the hex. Therefore the Germans could not support the Rumanian hex.

9.9 Multiple states of war
You can only support an attack against units you control if the supporting units are the same nationality as the unit (or hex during strategic bombardment) being attacked or at war with at least one major power or minor country attacking those units (or hexes).



Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/7/2015 7:19:35 PM)

Some opinions on comments made on these issues: I pretty much agree with Brian. Of course the resources are a big deal. On Bessarabia...creating a road block to help getting factories out is big! Concerning Murmansk...be careful...do not commit too many USSR units up there...if the Germans are doing a good job pushing east, those units could become trapped and might be of better use elsewhere. I have yet to play the MWiF map however.

USSR should never conduct a winter war with Finland. I once caught my opponent doing this Fall of '40, calculated that with help I could delay USSR conquest well into Winter...then started my '41 Barb in '40...I had USSR on its heals all the way to the Urals eventually...and blocked off valuable USSR units in the Finn and Leningrad - Murmansk areas. If you want the Finnish borderlands, pay attention to the calendar!

Concerning Persia: The Japs should be ready with peace keepers to go to Persia from the start. If the USSR player knows this, he might think twice about it, or at least prepare with a big force commitment. I think USSR going for Persia can be a benefit to Japan if Japan is ready for it. If USSR makes a big push in this area, it might be a good idea for Germany to conduct a Med strategy post France.



Joseignacio -> RE: Bessarabia & Finish Boarder Lands (9/8/2015 6:53:32 AM)

Extraneous, I see. thanks. I always get crazy to understand the MSoW rules



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