P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (Full Version)

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Dutchie999 -> P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 4:28:52 PM)


Hey guys,

I was just looking at the new P8 Poseidon and noticed that it doesn't come with a magnetic anomaly detector. Maybe a stupid question but without that how are you going to find nuclear submarines with this plane?



Rhygin00 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 5:09:35 PM)

Well it has 140 sonobuoys on board. Don't those work for you?



Primarchx -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 5:12:39 PM)

The Indian P-8 has MAD, as I recall.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 6:04:41 PM)

It was concluded that carrying a MAD detector has become inefficient weight wise versus the actual chance of flying directly over a sub on low altitude and actually detecting it, especially for a P8 which is designed to operate in the ASW role from medium altitude instead..

That's why MAD detectors are no longer carried on US antisubmarine AC.




ExNusquam -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 7:21:03 PM)

MAD isn't operational on most P-3s in service these days either. According to a Radar/MAD/EWO tech, the airframes are so old they aren't cleared to fly the profile to certify it, so they don't use it.



HaughtKarl -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/10/2015 10:52:33 PM)

Damn it seems like I'm learning something new from you guys each time I log into the forums. The nice thing about the MAD in Command is that it's the perfect tool to positively ID submerged contacts as subs or not. I notice that some scenario makers make judicious use of biologics and "false contacts" but it's frustrtaing when your ASW assets can't tell heads from tales and end up endlessly circling or hovering over these contacts. Send in a MAD equipped asset and *poof* your whale is a red sub.



Dysta -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 12:57:41 AM)

Well, at least MAD can pinpoint the exact location of the submarine. No matter how superior the sonobuoys are, they need to be constantly deployed to triangulate its mere approximate location. However, Posideon is both too fast and heavy to use MAD broom while skimming above the sea in low altitude.



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 1:40:22 AM)

It would be cool if the USN had a MAD drone, something that might be deployed in tandem with a P-8.



Sardaukar -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 8:26:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

It would be cool if the USN had a MAD drone, something that might be deployed in tandem with a P-8.


I think there were plans for P-8 to get MAD drone?

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html



Dutchie999 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 8:36:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhygin00

Well it has 140 sonobuoys on board. Don't those work for you?


Wait. So the only way for this plane to find a nuclear submarine is to just throw out a bunch of sonobuoys at a total random place. And just wait... hoping that by pure chance something sails along? That can't be possible it [&:]



wild_Willie2 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 9:07:06 AM)

You either use ASW assets at choke points or near assets that need protection, just having them search big swatches of water at random is just stupid.



OnFire -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 11:41:20 AM)

Best against SSN are other SSNs.



ExNusquam -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 1:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999

Wait. So the only way for this plane to find a nuclear submarine is to just throw out a bunch of sonobuoys at a total random place. And just wait... hoping that by pure chance something sails along? That can't be possible it [&:]

You think flying along at 1000' in a random place and hoping you fly pretty much right over a submarine that's also operating shallow is any better?

Like willie said, you're not searching the entire ocean.



SeaQueen -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 4:40:02 PM)

Not a stupid question at all. The answer is: use sonobuoys, radar, visual and EO/IR sensors.

One of the down sides to having a jet as an MPA like the P-8 is that its engines are most efficient at high altitude. Therefore, in order to maximize their range and endurance (a critical feature for an MPA), it is desirable in a jet MPA to remain at high altitude.

In order to do that, the US Navy decided to develop the High Altitude ASW Weapon Capability (HAAWC) which is in development. The idea behind it is to have a strap-on kit for a torpedo that turns it into a GPS guided glide bomb. That way, you don't have to come down low to drop the torpedo, the glide bomb just flies to the desired location and drops the torpedo there for you while you remain at high altitude, monitoring your station.

http://navaltoday.com/2013/04/12/boeing-secures-haawc-contract-from-us-navy/

Besides maximizing range and endurance, remaining at high altitude enables one to theoretically monitor more sonobuoys simultaneously because you have a longer radio line of sight. Additionally, it makes one's radar horizon longer, increasing the range at which one could theoretically detect periscopes. One's visual and EO/IR line of sight is also longer.

MAD requires one to come down to low altitude, because the sensor's range is typically very short. Given the advantages of staying high, and the lack of a necessity to do it with the upcoming HAAWC, the US Navy decided that MAD sensor's usefulness would be limited and did not justify it's inclusion on the new P-8A. There are those who disagree, though. The P-8I, the version for Indian export, reflects that dissent and does have a MAD detector.


quote:


I was just looking at the new P8 Poseidon and noticed that it doesn't come with a magnetic anomaly detector. Maybe a stupid question but without that how are you going to find nuclear submarines with this plane?



Dysta -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 5:21:05 PM)

In other words, it's a sonobuoy arm race.

The Baloogan's MAD drone however, isn't a bad idea. Aided with P-8 or any other high-capacity ASW planes's sonobuoy drop-bys, the drone can quickly find the sonar-triangulated goblin, and sustainably monitoring its activity with MAD broom or dip-sonar. Since MAD can pinpoint the submerged metal accurately, the datalink of ASW monitor will becomes much easier and advance than ever since.

The drone for low, while plane for high. Why not?



Pergite! -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 5:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta
The drone for low, while plane for high. Why not?



Its called HAASW-UTAS (high altitude anti-submarine warfare-unmanned targeting air system).

[image]http://www.militaryaerospace.com/content/dam/mae/online-articles/2015/January/HAASW%2014%20Jan%202015.jpg[/image]

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html



Pergite! -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 5:45:09 PM)

BAE isn't exactly making keeping up with the game easy for you devs ;)

I don't think its recoverable, so it should probably be able to be handled in the same manner as the MALD at the moment.



Dysta -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 5:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pergite!

Its called HAASW-UTAS (high altitude anti-submarine warfare-unmanned targeting air system).

Not found in the newest RC of DB3000 (typed in different keywords several times, both aircrafts and weapons). Gotta wait how it goes.



Pergite! -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 5:52:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pergite!

Its called HAASW-UTAS (high altitude anti-submarine warfare-unmanned targeting air system).

Not found in the newest RC of DB3000 (typed in different keywords several times, both aircrafts and weapons). Gotta wait how it goes.


Its pretty early in the development and good reliable data will probably be hard to come by.
Then there is the RQ-4N Triton, Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) which also is a complement to the P-8, which also is in the works.



Dutchie999 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 7:00:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

You either use ASW assets at choke points or near assets that need protection, just having them search big swatches of water at random is just stupid.


If you are protecting your own coasts and you can only catch nuclear subs at choke points why do you need a P-8? Permanent sonobuoys transmitting to a listening post on shore is probably far cheaper and a lot safer since big and slow planes are a very easy target. And will probably be the first to be shot down in a preemptive strike.



Primarchx -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 8:00:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

You either use ASW assets at choke points or near assets that need protection, just having them search big swatches of water at random is just stupid.


If you are protecting your own coasts and you can only catch nuclear subs at choke points why do you need a P-8? Permanent sonobuoys transmitting to a listening post on shore is probably far cheaper and a lot safer since big and slow planes are a very easy target. And will probably be the first to be shot down in a preemptive strike.


How do those cheaper, safer listening posts actually localize and kill enemy subs the detect? And what's shooting down your P-8s in a preemptive strike? They are only operated by the US and India, neither of which are particularly susceptible to sudden surprise (non-nuclear) attacks on airbases housing naval patrol squadrons in this day and age.



SeaQueen -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 8:59:46 PM)

You guys are also assuming that passive sonar is the way they're searching. There's also multistatic active sonobuoys like EER, IEER, and MAC.

http://breakingdefense.com/2012/10/navys-p-8-sub-hunter-bets-on-high-altitude-high-tech-barf-bag/


quote:


In other words, it's a sonobuoy arm race.

The Baloogan's MAD drone however, isn't a bad idea. Aided with P-8 or any other high-capacity ASW planes's sonobuoy drop-bys, the drone can quickly find the sonar-triangulated goblin, and sustainably monitoring its activity with MAD broom or dip-sonar. Since MAD can pinpoint the submerged metal accurately, the datalink of ASW monitor will becomes much easier and advance than ever since.

The drone for low, while plane for high. Why not?




Dutchie999 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 9:25:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

You either use ASW assets at choke points or near assets that need protection, just having them search big swatches of water at random is just stupid.


If you are protecting your own coasts and you can only catch nuclear subs at choke points why do you need a P-8? Permanent sonobuoys transmitting to a listening post on shore is probably far cheaper and a lot safer since big and slow planes are a very easy target. And will probably be the first to be shot down in a preemptive strike.


How do those cheaper, safer listening posts actually localize and kill enemy subs the detect? And what's shooting down your P-8s in a preemptive strike? They are only operated by the US and India, neither of which are particularly susceptible to sudden surprise (non-nuclear) attacks on airbases housing naval patrol squadrons in this day and age.


Good point I forgot to mention that. I was thinking along the lines of a long range RUM-139 from a shore VLS installation. And I am merely talking hypothetically now. Playing devils advocate a bit [:D].



SeaQueen -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/11/2015 10:20:57 PM)


quote:


If you are protecting your own coasts and you can only catch nuclear subs at choke points why do you need a P-8? Permanent sonobuoys transmitting to a listening post on shore is probably far cheaper and a lot safer since big and slow planes are a very easy target. And will probably be the first to be shot down in a preemptive strike.


Because you're not just protecting your own coasts and only intending to catch nuclear submarines at choke points. MPAs might also be sent to support groups of ships all over the world. You might assign one to a convoy or SAG, or else use them to protect an aircraft carrier or amphibious ready group. Since those things move, the thing that protects them from submarines needs to move too.

You're right, MPA a vulnerable to fighters, though. They're just like AWACs and ELINT aircraft. That's why when you design your MPA screen, you need to make sure that it's far enough behind your fighters and/or SAMs that you don't have to run away or risk being shot down very often. If you do have to run away, you want to make sure that you have enough warning that you can escape successfully.



Sakai007 -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/13/2015 2:27:47 AM)

Most of your convoys, SAGs, CSGs and whatnot are going to have on board helos to provide close ASW coverage. MPA's can scout out the route ahead and sanitize the area of transit. It's still just little chunks of ocean you need to scan at any given time. Now for invading a hostile coast, where enemy aircraft may be a problem, you had best prey your own fighters or SAMs are up to the task of making the airspace safe for ASW assets to operate in. This is where SSKs will be right in their element.



NakedWeasel -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/13/2015 5:01:53 AM)

I liked the idea of a number of P-8s supporting an operational CSG, able to refuel a carrier air wing with hose and drogue pods.This would be immensely helpful for the CSG ASW mission.

As a matter of fact, could this hypothetical loadout be added to the DB? Ive been wanting to test this capability, and am too tired, busy, and lazy to use editor add the capability by editing with mounts and sensors. Cmon. I rarely ask for anything unless it's for a good reason. [:D]



SeaQueen -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/15/2015 8:23:56 PM)

The problem with this, is that if you're going to send a P-8 to operate as a tanker, you might as well send a KC-135 and do the job better. A P-8 giving up its gas as a tanker won't be able to operate effectively as an MPA because giving up gas takes away from it's on station time and leads to gapped stations.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

I liked the idea of a number of P-8s supporting an operational CSG, able to refuel a carrier air wing with hose and drogue pods.This would be immensely helpful for the CSG ASW mission.

As a matter of fact, could this hypothetical loadout be added to the DB? Ive been wanting to test this capability, and am too tired, busy, and lazy to use editor add the capability by editing with mounts and sensors. Cmon. I rarely ask for anything unless it's for a good reason. [:D]




renders -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/16/2015 9:27:51 AM)

think tank here? [8D][:D]



SeaQueen -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/16/2015 10:54:51 PM)

It's my job.

quote:


think tank here? [8D][:D]




NakedWeasel -> RE: P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting (9/17/2015 12:06:37 AM)

As I stated, this was a concept that had been originally planned for the P-8. It wasn't my idea. But, the idea isn't all bad, either. The Poseidon doesn't spend all its time aloft looking for subs. And it could certainly refuel aircraft from Benson tanks without hurting its range.



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