RE: WitE 2 (Full Version)

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rainman2015 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 9:29:06 PM)

One thing i would really like to see is a MUCH easier way to manage support units. I seem to spend way too much time moving those guys around painfully, trying to figure out where they should best go to round out the corps properly, etc. The CR is NOT good at showing you everything you need to know immediately IMHO for managing support units, and moving them once you figure out where you want to send something is overly tedious. Yes, i understand this is a huge micromanagement game, and i love that, but spending hours figuring out where to put my support units as the German is not that fun.

A windows type spreadsheet that also showed the caliber of guns (210 vs 150 for example) where you could just drag and drop to the various corps or units would be great.

Also, something that showed you immediately where all your recons had already flown while you are doing recon would be great. Right now, you have to stop recon, go to the battles screen to see where you have already done recon, then go back into recon to continue. Painful.

Just a few thoughts on improvements...:)

Randy
:)



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 9:38:47 PM)

We are still in alpha for WitE2 and there are very few testers that have access at the moment. It is also only really playable to Dec 41.

From what I have found and seen a number of things are becoming apparent but could well change significantly:

- It feels different to play to WitE with the changes to the map, air and logistic systems.
- T1 is 7 days and the T1 rules are different between north and south.
- Logistics is key - avoiding combat saves supplies and also helps retaining the new combat prep points.
- Pockets are more resilient.
- Losses are higher.



loki100 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 10:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainman2015

Can some of the beta playtesters outline what they feel are the main changes with WITE2, why they like or dislike them, etc.

I know of course that the supply will be much different with depots and that you will not be able to overload one railline outrageously with supply like we can now in WITE.

Also, the air war will be much different, although i don't really understand WITW and how it is different, or if it would actually be better.

I have heard that the Soviets can actually do a Yelna type of thing in 41 now and do mass attacks that bleed the Germans badly as they really did, while the Germans wait for supply to catch up.

What do you like and dislike about the new WITE2 features compared to WITE?

It will have to be pretty damn good to top the current version of WITE though!

Randy
:)


For myself, its already a far better experience. A lot of what has become conventional wisdom for WiTE players you are going to have to unlearn. As an eg in one game I tried to swing 2 Panzer Groups over the landbridge -ie drawing off the same depot network - the result was they strangled each of other of supply and fuel. So you need to think carefully about the angle of an offensive - you'll be hunting locations for depots as much as the existence of empty space. On the other hand the concept of 'hurry up and wait' and building up supply for a big offensive is well captured.

The air war is like that in WiTW but reduced. The main issue is that both sides are much more dispersed than in WiTE as you are reliant on airfield capacity - the number of big airfields is limited ... and of course supply comes into play. All those Bf-109s you have up at the front are drawing off fuel and supplies from your Pzrs.

The result is both sides find it hard to concentrate. You don't see the WiTE excessive losses caused by air attacks as its hard to bring overwhelming power to bear - guess this will change by 1944 with the Soviets. But it is crucial. Even so, neither side is going to generate the sort of tactical airpower the Western Allies can use in France in 1944.

Combat losses are a reflection of intensity not retreat. So yes the Soviets will pound your over-extended front lines in attritional attacks. Of course, you gain combat morale and experience and if you are well prepared can turn their relative disorganisation against them.

The map is different, again a lot of assumed wisdom from WiTE will need to be unlearned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainman2015

...

Also, something that showed you immediately where all your recons had already flown while you are doing recon would be great. Right now, you have to stop recon, go to the battles screen to see where you have already done recon, then go back into recon to continue. Painful.

Just a few thoughts on improvements...:)

Randy
:)


not a problem, as in WiTW there is an airphase before the ground moves. So you set up your air missions (&this will include holding some planes back for ground support in the land phase), the orders are executed for you. With a little bit of practice its really quick and elegant, cuts playing time by a lot as you are not fiddling with airforce in the main land phase of the game



Northern Star -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 10:46:28 PM)

Let me know some numbers... How many planes do you destroy in WitE2 in turn 1? More or less than 5400?
And what happens with the encirclements in south?

And the most important thing... How to become a playtester? I was a WitE alpha tester between 2008 and 2010 and I was considered as a good player... Then I left for two years and now I'm still trying to reach good levels again... Let me know [:)]



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 11:02:38 PM)

I would love to see some *real* C&C dysfunction for the Soviets in the early days that would reflect movement problems, combat problems, co-ordination problems and units not receiving orders at all. Is this too much to wish for?



Northern Star -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 11:09:00 PM)

It will be a nice feature... At the moment the Soviet are too well organized from the beginning...
There was something similar in the old War in Russia... It was a great game!



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (5/11/2016 11:21:18 PM)

I don't know if anyone at 2by3 has read about the C&C nightmare that was the Soviet reality in June-August 1941, but maybe someone with their ear could enlighten them.



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 12:40:37 AM)

Low morale/exp levels, bad leaders (which impacts everything from MPs, to supplies, to combat ability and more), corps HQs that go away and motorized/tank divisions with low MPs that disintegrate and return as brigades. One can always add more, but don't forget the issues the Soviets are already dealing with. And remember, this is a game and in games most people want control. So we've given players control but over weakened units. I'm sure I'm leaving some other things out.

Gary's read more on the subject than most, and he's well aware of the early war fighting. Also, the Germans took greater losses in the first few months of the war than they did in most other months of the war. They had to fight hard to destroy the Soviet army 1.0 even with all those problems.



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 1:23:58 AM)

But Joel, honestly all those disadvantages you mention can be circumvented. Random acts that are malevolent by the AI that the player can't predict or change is the desired effect. For example:

When a player selects a unit to move to a location make it a possibility that the unit doesn't move, or goes halfway or goes elsewhere. When they attack drop some units out of the attack. Random fixing etc etc. This kind of thing throws a real spanner in the works. I have played other games that do this, it is effective, works well and is realistic.

I like that what you are doing with logistics. Add some spice with C&C too. Players want control? Well I bet a lot want this kind of thing. This was the reality. Hell make it an option. Realistic C&C chaos.



uw06670 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 1:42:08 AM)

I think making the Soviet player wait a full week before they can voluntarily move any units is bad enough. If you want to put in a simulation for the C&C chaos (I'm game) then I think you have to give them the ability to do something before the Germans move their full week of movement. There were Soviet units conducting counterattacks on June 23, so how do we account for that?



loki100 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 8:09:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

Let me know some numbers... How many planes do you destroy in WitE2 in turn 1? More or less than 5400?
And what happens with the encirclements in south?

....


a) a lot less - I'm getting around 2000 for T1 - but I'm still playing around with combinations of going all out to wreck the VVS, hitting some strong points (like Brest-Litovsk) and generally setting up interdiction. Due to the fixed airbases you get both destroyed from the air and a lot more destroyed on the ground when you over-run the airbases in the land phase.

You cannot do, as you can in WiTE, massive concentrations by moving your airbases. Both sides are forced to disperse their airpower following the at start pattern of airbases. So a lot of the gamey T1 strategies now in common use are utterly implausible. Its one of the (many) reasons why I prefer the WiTW/WiTE2 iteration - the game system itself removes some of the scope for rule abuse so beloved of some players

b) its different [;)], all those fantasies of the 'Lvov pocket' can be put to rest. The entire Ukrainian campaign in the first summer now plays out quite realistically.

edit - the interaction of air base capacity and that airbases are fixed will end a lot of unrealistic Soviet air strategies. If you only build Il-2s and scrap your Pe-2s etc then you will not be able to bring very much airpower to bear on a sector. So the current trick of bring 8-10 airbases into a sector, loading each with 6 or so squadrons of Il-2s will not be feasible. What you need is a layered approach to air allocation with short range fighters/tactical bombers near the front and longer range bombers/fighters set much further back. With the Germans you want to keep your Ju-88s/He-111s on your side of the initial border for some time - which again forces a dispersal of effort.



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 8:16:15 AM)

What wonders can a much more realistic supply system do [:)]

It will be a blast to play WitE2 (for me at least).



Manstein63 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/12/2016 1:51:40 PM)

One feature that I would like to see is a combined supply phase, so supply is calculated for both sides before any other actions are done, it might alleviate some of the problems with the IGO UGO system
Manstein63



Aurelian -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 10:01:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I would love to see some *real* C&C dysfunction for the Soviets in the early days that would reflect movement problems, combat problems, co-ordination problems and units not receiving orders at all. Is this too much to wish for?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Who is to say what would have happened if that had occurred historically. It's one of the reasons I play. To see how things may have panned out under different circumstances. People who have no imagination should stick to history books and leave the gamers in peace.


Say what? Putting in "real" Soviet C&C chaos would fly in the face of "People who have no imagination should stick to history books and leave the gamers in peace."

How about the German command chaos with Hitler's constant mind changing. "Take Leningrad"...."No surround it instead." "Moscow is the objective"....."No it's not important." Never comes up.



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 10:43:33 AM)

What sense is there in quoting from an entirely different thread about an entirely different subject?

Are you confused?

Come on, even you can do better than that [8|]




timmyab -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 1:32:37 PM)

Here's an idea for WITE2

Attacking an enemy unit can reduce the MP's of that enemy unit in it's phasing turn.
I would make the reduction in the number of MPs dependent on final CV ratio.

For a start this would give Soviet players a good incentive to attack German units in 41 and 42.
It's also realistic generally. If units are engaged during their non-phasing turn why should they have as much capability to move as a unit that wasn't engaged. It doesn't make sense. Holding and spoiling attacks are a common feature of any battlefield.



morvael -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 1:42:31 PM)

Theoretically fatigue gained in combat slows down units. Maybe the effect is too small, or fatigue reduction between turns too big?



Mamluke -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 1:50:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Here's an idea for WITE2

Attacking an enemy unit can reduce the MP's of that enemy unit in it's phasing turn.
I would make the reduction in the number of MPs dependent on final CV ratio.

For a start this would give Soviet players a good incentive to attack German units in 41 and 42.
It's also realistic generally. If units are engaged during their non-phasing turn why should they have as much capability to move as a unit that wasn't engaged. It doesn't make sense. Holding and spoiling attacks are a common feature of any battlefield.



holy crap, just thinking about for 10 secs, its the PERFECT incentive for a forward defense! this thus give some (gameplay) logic to Soviet behavior in 41, defending... while always going on the offensive against a superior enemy.

2by3, make it happen!



timmyab -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 2:14:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Theoretically fatigue gained in combat slows down units. Maybe the effect is too small, or fatigue reduction between turns too big?

Yes I think the affect of fatigue must be much too small so as to be unnoticeable (by me).
I was thinking more of the kind of affect that would be immediately noticeable so that when you open your turn you'll think "Why has that unit got so few MP's?", "oh I see, it got heavily attacked during the enemy turn".



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 3:50:52 PM)

This is already sort of there with the new Combat Preparation Point Rules. CPPs are very important, as they increase a unit's CV value when it attacks (but not when it defends). It only impacts the CV value, not the actual element to element fighting, so their purpose is to make it easier to take ground when attacking with fresh, rested units.

The current rule set (and we have a way to go so these are more likely to change than not) are below. I have emboldened the defend impact - attacking will rob your enemy of CPPs.

COMBAT PREPARATIONS

Background
Units that are constantly moving through enemy/contested territory and fighting become increasingly disorganized. Units which pause to rest gain time to regroup and prepare for the next battle.

Gaining Combat Preparation Points
Units with unused move points will gain combat preparation points (CPPs) at the end of their movement phase. Non-motorized units gain one CPP for each unused MP. Motorized units gain one CPP for every 3 unused MPs. Units which end the turn in a non-captured hex and not adjacent to an enemy hex will gain triple the number of CPPs for that turn. Units may never have more than 100 CPPs.

Losing Combat Preparation Points
Units moving through captured enemy hexes will lose one CPP per hex. Units participating in an attack will lose one half of their CPPs after the battle is resolved. Defending units participating in combat will lose CPPs depending on the outcome of the battle:

Defender retreat lose all CPPs
Odds >= 1.5 to 1 (or attack involves at least 30 stacking points*) lose one half of CPPs
Odds >= 1.0 to 1 (or attack involves at least 15 stacking points) lose one quarter of CPPs

*stacking points are 15=corps, 9=division, 5=brigade, 3=regiment

Benefits of Combat Preparation
For the purpose of calculating combat odds, attacking units will multiply their combat value by 1 + (CPP/100). During the supply phase, CPPs will help a unit pass support-admin rolls.




timmyab -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 4:58:47 PM)

Excellent news, sounds great.

However I would like to see CCPs influence a unit's MPs as well as CVs. I would say the time lost due to being engaged by enemy units is even more important.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 5:00:44 PM)

quote:

*stacking points are 15=corps, 9=division, 5=brigade, 3=regiment


What is the total stacking points for a hex? (Sorry if this was already mentioned)



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 5:39:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Here's an idea for WITE2

Attacking an enemy unit can reduce the MP's of that enemy unit in it's phasing turn.
I would make the reduction in the number of MPs dependent on final CV ratio.

For a start this would give Soviet players a good incentive to attack German units in 41 and 42.
It's also realistic generally. If units are engaged during their non-phasing turn why should they have as much capability to move as a unit that wasn't engaged. It doesn't make sense. Holding and spoiling attacks are a common feature of any battlefield.



This rule is already in WitW and WitE2 (from WitW manual):

15.15. REDUCTION IN DEFENDER MP’S When a unit is attacked, depending on the odds, it will suffer a loss in movement points during its next turn due to the attack. The loss of MPs is equal to the standard attack cost that a unit would have paid had it made the attack. For example, if it was a deliberate attack and the defending unit is motorized, it would pay lost 16 MPs from its next turn MPs. This standard attack cost is modified as follows based on the odds of the attack: No modifier if odds are 1.5 to 1 or greater 75 percent of cost if odds are 1 to 1 to 1.49 to 1 50 percent of cost if odds are .5 to 1 to .99 to 1 No cost if odds are less than 1 to 2. When a unit is attacked in the amphibious phase, which comes after the unit’s MPs are set, any loss of MPs due to enemy attacks is immediate and can leave a unit with 0 MPs at the start of their turn.



timmyab -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 5:49:26 PM)

nice one!

I'm thinking that this plus the CPP rule will give Soviet players plenty of incentive to attack German units even if it means placing the attacking unit in danger.



rainman2015 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 6:04:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Here's an idea for WITE2

Attacking an enemy unit can reduce the MP's of that enemy unit in it's phasing turn.
I would make the reduction in the number of MPs dependent on final CV ratio.

For a start this would give Soviet players a good incentive to attack German units in 41 and 42.
It's also realistic generally. If units are engaged during their non-phasing turn why should they have as much capability to move as a unit that wasn't engaged. It doesn't make sense. Holding and spoiling attacks are a common feature of any battlefield.



This rule is already in WitW and WitE2 (from WitW manual):

15.15. REDUCTION IN DEFENDER MP’S When a unit is attacked, depending on the odds, it will suffer a loss in movement points during its next turn due to the attack. The loss of MPs is equal to the standard attack cost that a unit would have paid had it made the attack. For example, if it was a deliberate attack and the defending unit is motorized, it would pay lost 16 MPs from its next turn MPs. This standard attack cost is modified as follows based on the odds of the attack: No modifier if odds are 1.5 to 1 or greater 75 percent of cost if odds are 1 to 1 to 1.49 to 1 50 percent of cost if odds are .5 to 1 to .99 to 1 No cost if odds are less than 1 to 2. When a unit is attacked in the amphibious phase, which comes after the unit’s MPs are set, any loss of MPs due to enemy attacks is immediate and can leave a unit with 0 MPs at the start of their turn.



Wow, that is a big rule change! The leading German mech divisions will get hit regularly under this rule i would guess if the Soviets can find any way to do it, 16 MPs is a big loss.

Randy
:)



rainman2015 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 6:19:48 PM)

Imagining in the summer of 41 where you have broken up motorized divisions to guard the sides of a pocket and their strength is only a 2-3 CV each regiment. Those regiments will all get attacked now somehow with the new lose MPs if attacked rule, since those motorized divisions struggle with supply issues to even get 30-40 MPs normally, and losing 16 of those MPs cuts their MPs in half each turn. BIG change in how the initial game plays out, and big implications for the entire game, late war also i am sure.

Hmmm

Not sure i like that rule, the Germans will not be able to keep up with historical movement rates with this i don't think in 41.

Randy
:)



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: WitE 2 (5/13/2016 9:20:51 PM)

I never understood why there isn't such a rule in WITE 1, even some Android game have something like this. Soviet counterattacks really slowed germans down, even if they were unsuccessful and had bad loss ratios.



HMSWarspite -> RE: WitE 2 (5/14/2016 10:21:57 AM)

Some of the people need to remember that this game is still in alpha. This means they are testing the coding not the game as such. So comments about anything that can be adjusted by data if you like are premature.

I really like the idea of the prep points. This sounds like a really good idea and could differentiate between resting and refitting , and preparing for combat. Thus I think that prep points should be looked at to prevent rear area units gaining them too easily, charging forwards and behaving like they have been planning their next attack all that time. You could stop units on refit gaining them (too busy absorbing all the noobies to plan their next move) or units more than a few hexes from an enemy hex get them slower or not at all. We don't want an ability to save them up remotely and then magically release the effect...



loki100 -> RE: WitE 2 (5/14/2016 10:36:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rainman2015
..

Wow, that is a big rule change! The leading German mech divisions will get hit regularly under this rule i would guess if the Soviets can find any way to do it, 16 MPs is a big loss.

Randy
:)


I'm not finding it that much of a problem to be honest. Typically (so far) these counterattacks tend to happen T4-9 when the Pzrs are, inevitably, in front of the infantry and at the end of their supply tether. You'll struggle for much over 30 MP in any case and losing a small bit due to the attacks isn't really what hampers your advance. The attacks are endless, fail, and cost (both sides) heavy losses. It really does feel right. So far even with the alpha state I've seen broadly realistic battles at Smolensk - Axis breakthrough, highly confused battle (who is actually surrounding whom), seal the pocket and then get hit by a Soviet offensive when all you want to do is to rest and rebuild.

Later in the game, I'd assume that armour massing for an offensive would be in the second line, so any pre-offensive spoilers are going to hit the covering infantry.

I'm also seeing much more realism in the Ukraine - with the Germans you are constantly looking for a way to tip Kirponos' well led SW Front over the edge, but even big victories only seem to yield small gains

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Some of the people need to remember that this game is still in alpha. This means they are testing the coding not the game as such. So comments about anything that can be adjusted by data if you like are premature.

I really like the idea of the prep points. This sounds like a really good idea and could differentiate between resting and refitting , and preparing for combat. Thus I think that prep points should be looked at to prevent rear area units gaining them too easily, charging forwards and behaving like they have been planning their next attack all that time. You could stop units on refit gaining them (too busy absorbing all the noobies to plan their next move) or units more than a few hexes from an enemy hex get them slower or not at all. We don't want an ability to save them up remotely and then magically release the effect...


One thing I've noticed (and like) is if you send a battered formation a long way to the rear (ie back to Germany) it will recover very well, if you just try to keep it near the front the recovery is slow and partial. Its not micro-management as such, but it does reward a realistic rotation of your armies and of course will lead to German problems by the mid-game when they really can't pull much off the front, never mind back to the Reich for a 'strength through joy' sabbatical.

Think its fair to say the prep points are a really neat idea, but the question of how to acquire them and how they are shed is being developed. Thing is you want to avoid too many discrete states - such as must not be in refit, must be 'x' hexes from front, can only attack after moving less than y hexes and so on - or it gets too much micro-management ... and I'd suspect in PBEM too easy to exploit. So for what its worth, I'm of the view that keeping it simple - ie hard to acquire but not so easy to shed (outside of combat) seems like a valid compromise.



comte -> RE: WitE 2 (5/14/2016 9:07:33 PM)

Loki really enjoying reading your thoughts on the new WITE 2 engine. Also a fan of your AAR's [8D]



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