RE: WitE 2 (Full Version)

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56ajax -> RE: WitE 2 (11/26/2018 10:29:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldMarinePanzer

What does that mean, "off map"?

off map, like in WiTE1 a artillery regiment; does not occupy a hex on the battlefield but can be assigned to a HQ or other unit....



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (11/26/2018 11:44:44 PM)

Any idea when WITE 2.0 will enter beta testing? I mean are we talking within 12 months or beyond that.

I am getting an itch for WITE again but I am reluctant to bash off rust for WITE 1.0 if 2.0 beta is not so far off.



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (11/27/2018 6:42:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Any idea when WITE 2.0 will enter beta testing? I mean are we talking within 12 months or beyond that.

I am getting an itch for WITE again but I am reluctant to bash off rust for WITE 1.0 if 2.0 beta is not so far off.


Honestly I don't know. We inadvertently create a big bug and it sets us back weeks. In parallel we are having to add functionality to manage the increased game complexity. The Commmander's Report has just had a big overhaul and we finally have split the code from WitW.

If your eye is on WitE2 testing then you need to be WitW savvy although I appreciate that assuaging the challenge of the Eastern Front is not quite the same.



Michael T -> RE: WitE 2 (11/27/2018 8:02:22 PM)

Thanks John. I can't get in to WITW. And honestly I would rather approach WITE 2.0 with a completely clean slate, that is no WITW fuzz. I catch on pretty quick.

I think I will leave WITE 1.0 alone too so when I hit WITE 2.0 it will be with maximum hunger.

Happy to join the beta team ranks if deemed suitable when the time arrives.

I think you should not preclude non WITW players from your list, often completely fresh eyes see things others don't.



thedoctorking -> RE: WitE 2 (11/28/2018 4:38:24 PM)

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).



martinsmit -> RE: WitE 2 (11/28/2018 6:59:59 PM)

quote:

The Commmander's Report has just had a big overhaul

show screenshot please!



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (11/28/2018 8:00:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: martinsmit

quote:

The Commmander's Report has just had a big overhaul

show screenshot please!


I've grabbed this screenshot from the Dev Forum - but please don't ask me questions on how it works as my real life job means I've had almost no practice with it. It is really hot off the press and has just entered testing but as you asked here's a preview with the usual caveats given we are still in alpha.

Pavel (Helpless) has starred again by creating an improved system where the CR is now a sorted table which is modular and consists of 5 sections.

1. Functions.
2. Filters.
3. Column header.
4. Table.
5. Footer.

The really good thing as I understand it is that you can configure the tables as you want to present the data you need and this is saved in your preferences. As in old CR, table entries can be linked to some function (eg. go to the map and select air group) or quick filter selection (select all FB in type filter).
It is also possible to colour code particular entries.

[image]local://upfiles/18789/8334D690067A48C391F60FEE97FE7FB6.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 9:01:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldMarinePanzer

What does that mean, "off map"?

off map, like in WiTE1 a artillery regiment; does not occupy a hex on the battlefield but can be assigned to a HQ or other unit....


WiTE2 uses the concept of Theatre Boxes - in essence its the treatment of the East Front in WiTW but much better done. Most of these are geographical representations of regions where either the Soviets or the Axis had to allocate a lot of units and resources - Western Europe, the Soviet Far East etc. They are also used to model essentially static regions such as the Arctic or where the scale of combat doesn't really fit with the divisional scale/10km hex (such as the partisan war).

Both sides also have a more generic 'reserve' theatre. You can use this to refit fresh units or those that have had a real battering in combat. It also allows you to model the Soviet model of pulling units into 'Stavka reserve' after an offensive to refit and redeploy.

So specifically, you put your tank brigades into this reserve, form your tank corps (or later mech corps). You can also form a tank corps without first having the brigades but this is inefficient as the unit will have exceptionally low experience etc. Let it refit and train, once you deem it ready bring it to the map.

If you use your tank brigades (and you really need to) you can either assign direct to a combat unit as an attachment or to HQ and then they are parcelled out into combat using the standard support unit assignment routine. An early Soviet cavalry corps with directly attached tank brigades can generate much needed mobility and hitting power in December 41-March 42.



Dreamslayer -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 9:40:53 AM)

Is there will be ability to assign such(support) units to Soviet divisions? Or only to Corpse size combat units?



loki100 -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 10:56:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Is there will be ability to assign such(support) units to Soviet divisions? Or only to Corpse size combat units?


Soviet and Romanian divisions can now get one direct attachment (think Hungarians too). but its the same restrictions as in WiTE1 so you can attach AT, AA, Inf, Mot, Arm support units but not artillery.

Its a good use of the 1941 Soviet infantry brigades as you can attach to a rifle division and effectively stack 4.5 divisions in a hex, gives you an attacking cv of say 12 and that is before you multiply this by using preparation points. Can allow the Soviets to create something with real hitting power, but it degrades quickly as it moves and fights. You can also use the 1941 Soviet AT brigades as attachments and that can really upset an unwary Pzr division as all its Pzr 1/11s are reduced to rubble on the battlefield.

If you have played WiTW you'll be used to the concept of multi-role units, that can be on the map as a combat unit (say a Soviet rifle brigade) or off the map as an attachment. There are some pretty powerful units in the OOB that can have this dual role and its interesting to explore the best use (and how this alters as the game develops) as at times you want as many counters as you can and at others you want concentrated combat power.



xhoel -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 3:22:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).


+1



Zorch -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 6:24:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).


+1

Complete with Colonel Potter to put plugs in the horses for parades.

[image]local://upfiles/34241/EB3C0A2963C84BB481495FE5A3D5615D.jpg[/image]



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 6:28:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).


+1


At heart and as a player I agree but I can't see it happening. It would be yet more complexity to add to a game pushing current processing power which needs research, balancing and delivery this decade.

More fidelity and complexity is a double edged sword. How many debates have there been on this forum on balance? Not something you see amongst those who play chess.



Zorch -> RE: WitE 2 (11/29/2018 6:42:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).


+1


At heart and as a player I agree but I can't see it happening. It would be yet more complexity to add to a game pushing current processing power which needs research, balancing and delivery this decade.

More fidelity and complexity is a double edged sword. How many debates have there been on this forum on balance? Not something you see amongst those who play chess.


+1 You can't please everyone all the time.



Zebtucker12 -> RE: WitE 2 (12/8/2018 3:15:16 PM)

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!



Icier -> RE: WitE 2 (12/9/2018 6:58:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!


I agree



Colbert -> RE: WitE 2 (12/9/2018 7:10:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icier


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!


I agree


+1



JamesM -> RE: WitE 2 (1/1/2019 11:00:51 PM)

Hopefully this games is released this year.



Balou -> RE: WitE 2 (1/2/2019 3:51:06 PM)

See Red Lancers post #1593. Sounds more like 2020 to me.



Zemke -> RE: WitE 2 (1/2/2019 7:08:42 PM)

Question / Thought
As the continued balance question keeps coming up, there should be a "historical" setting, based on testing of the game based on what each side did in the war, particularly the early and late periods. If you played with the game set to "historical", and both players played exactly like each side did, you would see roughly the same results in the same time period. Now if that result is unbalanced because players of either side used a different plan, for example pushed to take Leningrad (and most can currently in WitE1, when historically Hitler only wanted to destroy/starve the City out, so the Germans never really tried to take Leningrad, only besiege...anyway), will there be alter net settings as in WitE now to give a +/- to different areas of the game to achieve that balanced game?

Also, just one comment about WitE1 currently, the beauty of the current system is it allows anyone who has ever played a hex based operational war game,to pretty much jump right in and play. You do not need to know how all the "systems" work, you just have to make common sense decisions, and if you follow history, you won't go too wrong. Now compare that with War in the Pacific: AE, where if you are playing Japan and you do NOT understand the production system, it will hurt you badly. Simple with depth is great, just don't let the depth become "Chrome" that most of the time becomes a way to manipulate the game systems (as everyone will if given a chance) to gain an edge. Keep it historical, keep it simple, and make it force you to make the decisions real Commanders had to make when faced with a situation. I know many players want to be able to change industry and build what they want, and I have no problem with that, but it should be an optional setting, because it deviates from the historical.



OberGeneral -> RE: WitE 2 (1/15/2019 4:21:41 PM)

[>:][>:]



OberGeneral -> RE: WitE 2 (1/16/2019 2:56:25 PM)

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (1/16/2019 3:36:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]


We are making progress. The Air War is staying the same with Air Directives but we are adding new functionality to group Air Units together in Air Op Groups to allow easier management.



OberGeneral -> RE: WitE 2 (1/17/2019 3:15:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]


We are making progress. The Air War is staying the same with Air Directives but we are adding new functionality to group Air Units together in Air Op Groups to allow easier management.


Thank you for the update.[:)]



TunganNinja -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 7:59:05 AM)

doublepost



TunganNinja -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 8:14:40 AM)

To Red Lancer:


You mentioned that there will be a theater box for the Arctic region. I'm wondering if you can expand on that point a little with concern to the Finnish front. I have two questions specifically in mind.

It is heavily speculated by many in the alternate history community that in the event of a winter '41-'42 surrender of Leningrad, greater German support would be able to reach the Lappland theater. This would allow for a possible Winter/Spring '42 offensive to cut off Murmansk railway (short term positioning), and possibly afterwards the capture of Murmansk itself (long term positioning). The Fins attempted to do such historically (with limited German support), but ground out with poor logistics. Given that Murmansk was an important Lend Lease supply link (along with Archengelsk), up until Persian chained LL increased in '43, does WitE 2 account for the possibility of reduced LL in the early war, due to these hypothetical offensives?

Also, the Finnish army mobilized a substantial portion of it's population into it's OoB (500k out of 3.5m total pops if I recall), but was historically unable to contribute to offensive operations after it's initial campaign. In fact, their OoB decreased from '43 on because of lack of supply on their homefront. My second question is then, can WitE 2 account for the significant lifting of Finnish supply issues by way of Germany through Leningrad to Finland? Ofcourse, Germany was having it's own supply issues, but no other minor Axis power suffered from supply issues quite like Finland, due to their logistical isolation, that required them to demobilize.

I'm afraid the answer to these questions is no, which would be disappointing. Lend Lease had a huge impact on the general war, and long term, full Finnish participation without demobilization would change the Northern Front during the late war period. Sure, they're not getting shiny new equipment, but at least they're being fed.


Cheers,
Tungan



TunganNinja -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 8:47:02 AM)

I also have two questions about railroads in WitE 2.

During the war, numerous new railroads were constructed by the USSR in support of their war effort. The most famous example is the railroad from Astrakhan to Baku, which was built during the Winter of '42 in response to Axis control of the Western Caucauses, temporarily cutting off rail-based oil supply. In WitE 1, this railroad is anachronistically present from the start of the game. Does WitE 2 have a dynamic system for building railroads, a static system as it was in WitE 1, or something in between, as in a segment appears at a certain date?

Also a related question, it's no surprise to anyone that a chief motivator of Case-Blau was cutting off the USSR's supply of oil. The likelihood of that plan paying off can be debated (I debate it), but if successful what would it look like? An aspect of Caucasus oil production is that it was principally transported by boats up the Volga. By having Germany secure the Volga's western shores, they effectively cut off a major avenue of supply of oil. This would lead to inefficiencies in transport but would be partially averted by transporting it to a different Caspian Sea port and building a railway, but would take the Soviets time to build up the accompanying infrastructure. So, how does WitE 2 account for shipping of the Caucasus' oil to long-term USSR supply depots in the Urals? This would have debatable effects but could be potentially crippling on Soviet offensive ability in a year or two's time assuming that the blockade held.



TunganNinja -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 9:12:06 AM)

Last question, and I think the most important one. A significant reason for attritional losses in warfare is lack of nutrition. This can be as much a supply issue as a production issue. In sieges like Leningrad and Stalingrad, it was a supply issue. For the Germans, in the late war they had significant production issues that could be felt across the whole warfront. IIRC, the Ukraine and Caucusus comprised approximately 75 to 80% of USSR's agricultural production. As Germany learned firsthand, it took a very long time to bring these fields back into producing significant yields.

Almost universally in wargames, the productional aspect of agriculture is ignored, but it's effects are very present to a commander 1 or 2 years after shortage in the form of easily fatigued and demoralized men. Soldiers feel the effects significantly less than civilians, but if severe enough it can lead to the collapse of a wareffort entirely.

Therefore, my question concerns Soviet war rations and ability to maintain a homefront. By late '42 the Soviet Union began to feel the painful loss of their agricultural fields in their stomachs. Lend Lease was not capable of mitigating demand for grain and like as population was massive. In our time line, the Soviets simply drew from their granaries, as they planned to do with their oil reserves if oil was temporarily cut off. If the Soviets were denied their agricultural areas for a longer expanse of time, rationing would have an even stronger effect on Soviet morale and a small chance to cause a destabilization of their homefront. On the other hand, by early '43 Germany was just beginning to bring production of agriculture and minerals back online in their conquered territories, and promptly lost it before making use of it. This would alleviate Germany of many production issues (primarily agricultural) that they experienced late war and consequently raise their morale.

Does WitE 2 have any features which simulate the production of agriculture, and the effects of malnutrition on local/national morale levels?

Thank you for reading attentively, I hope they in some small way can shape WitE 2 into a more accurate simulator of the Eastern Front.

Cheers,

Tungan



Capitaine -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 3:22:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TunganNinja

I also have two questions about railroads in WitE 2.

During the war, numerous new railroads were constructed by the USSR in support of their war effort. The most famous example is the railroad from Astrakhan to Baku, which was built during the Winter of '42 in response to Axis control of the Western Caucauses, temporarily cutting off rail-based oil supply. In WitE 1, this railroad is anachronistically present from the start of the game. Does WitE 2 have a dynamic system for building railroads, a static system as it was in WitE 1, or something in between, as in a segment appears at a certain date?

Also a related question, it's no surprise to anyone that a chief motivator of Case-Blau was cutting off the USSR's supply of oil. The likelihood of that plan paying off can be debated (I debate it), but if successful what would it look like? An aspect of Caucasus oil production is that it was principally transported by boats up the Volga. By having Germany secure the Volga's western shores, they effectively cut off a major avenue of supply of oil. This would lead to inefficiencies in transport but would be partially averted by transporting it to a different Caspian Sea port and building a railway, but would take the Soviets time to build up the accompanying infrastructure. So, how does WitE 2 account for shipping of the Caucasus' oil to long-term USSR supply depots in the Urals? This would have debatable effects but could be potentially crippling on Soviet offensive ability in a year or two's time assuming that the blockade held.

This is a very important inquiry. That was indeed Hitler's intention behind Case Blau, and it probably was a better plan than the General's Staff's Barbarossa plan.



RedLancer -> RE: WitE 2 (1/22/2019 7:22:43 PM)

Tungan

Thanks for taking the time to clearly articulate your questions. Let me try and answer. I’ve been busy with real life and WitE2 graphics recently so don’t be surprised if Joel chips in and corrects me. The usual caveats of we are still in alpha and our focus is getting the main areas of historic combat correct apply.

Treatment of Finland
As you’ll have picked up from the thread the relative importance of the Arctic Theatre, its size and AI challenges has led us to abstract it for the Campaign games. What happens in the Theatre Box (TB) is governed by Events and CV. There is currently no event that triggers an increase in supply in the TB when Leningrad is captured but it could be added. In a similar way if the Soviet player fails to commit sufficient troops to the TB then LL ought to take a hit.

Rail Construction
Rails are not dynamic. As we have created the map we have carefully chosen the best compromise based on time and geography.

Moving Resources
I’m not 100% sure how the logistics system works with resource movement as it is largely hidden. I do know that the game now allows port depots to be switched between send and receive to allow freight to be better channelled by sea as required. Shipping values are set separately for the Baltic, Black, Azov and Caspian Seas. We could also add an event that triggers on cutting the supply from Baku, by say, capturing Astrakhan, Lagan or Makhachkala.

Agriculture
Your argument is well made. This level of nuance is applied through broad modifiers on supply as at the basic level we don’t separate agriculture from other resources – only oil is treated separately.



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