Popularity of alternate history campaign (Full Version)

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A_B -> Popularity of alternate history campaign (4/19/2001 7:49:00 PM)

I am working on a long WWII German campaign. It goes from Poland (3 battles), to France (5 battles), to Yugoslavia (1 battle), to Greece (3 battles). All the battle with the exception of Greece have been completed. At this point, I was planning on taking the campaign from Greece to Russia - not N. Africa because I don’t want to compete against the Mega Campaign. However, I’ve been having a discussion with a play tester about supporting the airborne invasion of Crete with an amphib assault. After this is where things get a little fanciful. The play tester has told me about German plans to conduct an airborne invasion of Suez. This was, of course, never even close to being logistically possible. However, it could be a lot of fun. So the question I’m posing is this, would campaign players prefer a Russian version of the campaign, or an eastern Mediterranean version (including assaults on Crete, Cyprus, Syria, Suez, and then up into Russia, via turkey). Let me know.



Supervisor -> (4/19/2001 8:04:00 PM)

I find your eastern Med idea interesting. Plus, I don't think TOO far from the realm of possibility. Something other than another eastern front scenario would be good IMO.



Rick Borovec -> (4/19/2001 8:34:00 PM)

I like the Med. idea. Airborne/Amphip assualts sound fun. Boro



Silvarius -> (4/19/2001 8:43:00 PM)

Hello A-B, I like your idea of a long WWII campaign in itself very much (the one generated by the computer is not very interesting). And the East-Med ideas sound very good. Don't let strict history spoil your creativity. If you need testers, I'm your man ;) . Silvarius.



Jeff Norton -> (4/19/2001 8:47:00 PM)

Sounds good. I've always wondered how a '46 scenario/campaign would look - Ger. Inf. Running around with MP44's, Panther II's, and other weapons that did not make the cut in 44-45. Oh, well... Maybe one day... -Jeff



KG Erwin -> (4/19/2001 9:05:00 PM)

I like the eastern med version, too, BUT you would have to include the proposed invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules, I think the plan was called).



A_B -> (4/19/2001 9:20:00 PM)

Ok, alternative history doesn’t seem to put people off, good! Also, everyone here has probably hypothesized on a whole series of historical ‘what if’ situations, and their effect on history. So here is another. What would the allied (British & US) response have been to the successful capture of Suez and Cairo? Assume this capture was the result of a successful el alamein in august/September ’42, in conjunction of a massive (Crete style) airborne invasion of Suez backed up with an amphib invasion. So does Torch continue, or something else? Assume that Malta had fallen to the Germans late in ’41 (and possibly Gibraltor)?



TheZel66 -> (4/19/2001 9:41:00 PM)

what about the invasion of Malta?? Once I get through with Wild Bill's Class, Im thinking of doing a campaign of Operation Sealion, the German invasion of the British homeland..



Mikimoto -> (4/19/2001 10:54:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: I like the eastern med version, too, BUT you would have to include the proposed invasion of Malta (Operation Hercules, I think the plan was called).
Hello. The plans to invade Malta, from early 1942, were codenamed "Operation C3" from the Italians. In Berlin was condenamed "Operation Hercules". In the issue nr 20 of the Command magazine is an extense article about it, including OOB of the invassion force. Another "what if" I have never seen in the Steel Panthers serie (and i like the topic so much) is "Operation Felix", the Axis proposed invasion of Gibraltar. It was the Grossdeuchstland Regiment that trained for it. The poor collaboration of Spain (Franco was afraid of British blockade) was the principal cause of abandoning it. Saludos. :p



A_B -> (4/20/2001 12:10:00 AM)

So, what were the chances of success of an invasion of Malta and Gibraltar? Would the germans have given either operation armor support, or would they be all infantry operations - i'm not that familier with the topography (terrain) involved. And what would the allied response be to the loss of both of these bases, and egypt?



TheZel66 -> (4/20/2001 12:33:00 AM)

I used to have a board game from Avalon Hill which did the Malta campaign. I vaguely remember there not being alot of armor. It was mostly an airbourne/glider assalt. Maybe some historians out there can expand/correct. I think malta is a very hilly/rocky rough terrain.



Mikimoto -> (4/20/2001 1:03:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A_B: So, what were the chances of success of an invasion of Malta and Gibraltar? Would the germans have given either operation armor support, or would they be all infantry operations - i'm not that familier with the topography (terrain) involved. And what would the allied response be to the loss of both of these bases, and egypt?[/QUOTE Well, if I remember correctly, the main force to assault Gibraltar was the IRGD supported by some light armour (do not know from which unit) and with spanish support too, mainly artillery and logistics. Cancelled because no chance of success without spanish support. Gibraltar was the door of the Mediterranean sea. Its possession was of the highest strategic importance. Malta was a pain in the Axis supply lines. British forces on Malta, both air and navy, were inflicting heavy losses on the axis convoys supplying their forces in North Afrika and forcing to take secondary and extended routes to others. It was stressing the fuel consum. In April 42 the Axis air attacks were succesful supprssing the island. The reasons for its cancellation were: Rommel success at Tobruk and Gazala, persuading Mussolini and the fuhrer that an advance deep into Egypt was possible without securing Malta. Also Hitler feared the Italians not acomplishing their promises and feared his elite paratroopers isolated and annihilated. It is said that the axis failure to take Malta to the British was lead to the defeat at El Alemein later in the year. About the Maltese topography, it is a rocky, rough limestone island with little vegetation. It is full of stone fences and walls, five to seven feet high. The human-made defences of Malta were formidable (as I readed). I think there were some Italian Semoventes (assault guns) in the second wave, amphibious assault. This is for the Axis. Malta defenders had the 1st independent Troop of the Royal Tank Regiment. This unit was equipped with Matilda II and Vickers Mark IV-c Light tanks. It is estimated that the total armour number did not exceeded ten tanks. Hope this helps. Saludos. :)



appunk -> (4/20/2001 3:53:00 AM)

Just as a heads up for the scenario designers interested in Malta/gibralter. As was mentioned earlier, if you can get your hands on an old copy of the avalon hill game "Invasion of Crete", there is a bonus game covering the invasion of malta, with a nice map and oob. Similarly, Strategy and Tactics magazine released an issue, around '95 if I remember correctly, that had a great article and a game covering operation felix. (the issue had a 2nd game covering the battle of Zama in the punic wars) I don't have these with me, but if a designer really wants the info/maps, send me an email, and I can rummage around in my parents house till I find them, and then mail/email the info as appropriate. happy hunting



Christophe Jaureguiberry -> (4/20/2001 3:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by A_B: So the question I’m posing is this, would campaign players prefer a Russian version of the campaign, or an eastern Mediterranean version (including assaults on Crete, Cyprus, Syria, Suez, and then up into Russia, via turkey). Let me know.
Definitely the Med, with all of the above plus Malta. I am curious to see Italian troops in action, even if they are only auxilliary units. To close your campaign, you could also do an Hypothetical German vs. Japanese, somewhere in India, although it should be approached with care. Regards, Christophe



Coachace -> (4/20/2001 4:57:00 AM)

The Mediterranean scenarios you mentioned sound intriguing. Early Italian activities would have gone much better, so a stronger Italian force in north Africa would be prevelant, allowing German resources to capture Suez & Egypt. Perhaps, America would have more closely allied itself with the Soviet Union and help bolster the Soviets southern borders. It may not have taken much to make Turkey a strong Allied country. Perhaps there may have been an earlier desert storm fought in Iraq between the Axis & Allies. Sure, Spain was recovering from a recent civil war, but taking Gibraltar would have improved their reputation with the Germans and could have been a wise political move. (Germany taking the Suez would have swayed a few borderline neutral countries to their side, after all). Yes, yes, please do the Mediterranean campaign! :D



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