Review: First Impressions (Full Version)

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VegasOZ -> Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 8:43:41 AM)

GREAT GAME.


BUY IT.


DO IT NOW.


FANTASTIC WORKMANSHIP BY THE DEVELOPERS.


Thanks



TomBombadil711 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 9:50:54 AM)

VegasOZ said it all, hardly anything left to be added. Glad to have a game dealing with another topic than WW2. Looking forward to the Vietnam game.



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 1:31:58 PM)

Especially considering the age of the codebase they had to deal with, and the order of magnitude of change in PCs since this series was first developed, I think the team has done a very good job.



dox44 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 1:53:34 PM)

I agree.

Its a steal.

very impressive. played darn near all night.



KEYSTONE0795 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 2:12:11 PM)

Feels like a comfortable old shoe with a new sole, heel, and leather. This is one of the few war game purchases I have made in some time where I feel I received real value in return for my purchase.

Any new Campaign Series release is a first day purchase for me.

Thank you for the great entertainment.[&o]



alwaysdime -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 2:26:11 PM)

I'm trying to hold off on making an opinion just yet. A few weeks ago I probably would have said its a 10. That's when the plan was a couple new games and patching the older titles up to the current code base. Now knowing the plan is for East Front, West Front and Rising Sun to be full fledged releases costing $55 (With shipping, and assuming they keep the same price point) my view has changed. The "its an old engine" philosophy no longer fly's and I think each release needs to be judged against other releases in 2015. For example, if I consider Command Modern Air and Naval a 10 then is this a 10? I would think the 20 year old UI would only rate an 8 compared to other recent releases. I'll probably post in more detail as I spend more time with the game. Its not the sort of title you spend 5 hours on and get an informed opinion.

P.S. I have no knocks with the effort or work that went into this at all. I hope dev don't take it that way. My opinion of this series when it was a "labor of love" is just different than Slitherine turning this into a 6 game series at full prices for a 20 year old engine. Hopefully they will consider a reduced price on the older titles but considering WW2 titles probably sell ten times more than other conflicts I doubt there will be a discount there.



berto -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 2:46:28 PM)


People tend to focus on the game engine, and among other things, judge a game, and the "fair price" for it, on how "old" it is. But these games are much more than the engine. There is the data -- the OOBs, the maps, the scenarios -- all entirely redone for Middle East; also the upgraded graphics, the .ai files, etc., not to mention the required background reading that underpins it all -- to go along with the engine. More effort has gone into (re)building the data than reworking the engine, in fact. (Though there are also tons of game engine improvements. Much of it is brand new code.) Is $40 (digital download) not a fair price for a game, and data set, 5 years in the making?

Now consider: Because we took the trouble a couple of years ago, all of the games in the Campaign Series now share a common codebase. We can easily back port improvements in the newer games to the old. Middle East -- five years in the making, and you can expect five years post-release of free updates (engine improvements, graphics updates, new scenarios and maps, etc.) to a "living game".

Is $40 really still too much to ask?



zakblood -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 3:06:49 PM)

good job and great forward planning[;)]



dox44 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 3:15:04 PM)

we want quality programs and then bitch about price when we get it. i have Command and bitching about price
is there too--incredible. If they charge $79 for IN...i'm there. they have earned that. i would have paid twice
for what they charged for Command. Its that good.

ME is too and for $39.00! i saved up for 3 months and followed along the forum not making up mind until about
2 or 3 weeks ago.

i work in education for the state now. i have a very limited budget like $15.00 a month for wargames. i save until i find something i want and if its a good product--well all the better. I have several that aren't very well supported,
i'm sure we all do...i don't care how old the engine is. i got 60 year old baseball cards and i wouldn't sell them
cheap cause their 'engine' is old.

i figure Command at $79 has cost me about 10 cents a startup. probably less in the 15 months i've 'owned' it. can't beat that anywhere and its updated all the time. some of the hardest working people i've bought a product from...any product.

i hope they do charge $50 for Vietnam. high time we paid talent. i was hoping they would charge $50 for this one...i hope it is a 'living' game. this is a joint effort. we support them so hopefully we get a good, well supported project

rant over aand know i'm not on matrix payroll and actually don't know any of the people who worked on ME or Command.




BradK82 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 3:37:06 PM)

I have been disappointed with some matrix releases which I felt were too incomplete and paid twice as much for. This will NOT be one of them. All the work these guys have put in that I have followed. This game has great aesthetics. I played all day yesterday without noticible glitches so far, still early I know. A full editor and battle generator giving practically endless replayability... At todays prices where much more is generally charged for much less at 50$ I feel like I am getting a steal.



Warhorse -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 3:40:32 PM)

Thanks all for your support! And, as Berto pointed out, it is not all about an "old" engine, my work on the 3d graphics for instance, which, BTW is not even halfway over, takes me somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-6 hours on some unit graphics for EACH unit graphic!! Ain't bitchin', I love doing them, but it's gotta be paid for as well, I work most evenings and pretty much all day Saturday and Sunday on them, very time consuming! The 2d graphics took me months to complete just those, to see all that improvement when you play 2d now!!



alwaysdime -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 4:23:19 PM)

I think my post may have been taking out of context.

Work involved- Did you guys put in tremendous hours making it a good game? Yes you did. What you did with the air layer, 2D layer and scenario's was great. I acknowledge you did a great job there. You guys did great, that's the bottom line.

Engine - It does show its age at times. You have even acknowledge that but I don't recall the post off hand. I think it had to do with aircraft and maybe introducing dog fighting or something like that. Some things I would like to see in a modern title would include
1) Detailed combat settings. Show originating hex and receiving hex. With hundreds os units it could be easier to display what hex is firing at what hex. Since you show moveable hex's why not show hex's IF you choose to double time it. Why do I have to do the math of movement in this day and age? It worked in 1995 but its not 1995 any more. When I mention the engine its little things like this I refer to.

10 - The fact I don't view this as a 10 doesn't mean its not good. Not by a mile, but you inherited all the limitations of the engine from 20 years ago in a product released in 2015. There is no way around that unless you re-write the game from the ground up (You probably did half that). If a 10 is warranted based on fun and value you have it. If you base a score based on whats been done lately then you can't expect a 10. I don't mean that as a negative and "don't buy it". Anyone who has been playing the John Tillers Campaign Series will love it and should look into this title.

Cost - I never said the cost for Middle East wasn't worth it. I did question the cost of $55 with shipping for the older titles getting updated to the modern 2015 engine. I intend to purchase them all in the clam shell case and include shipping in my price estimate. That does amount to $55 X 3 for the old titles so bringing up the price for the old titles is not as warranted in my opinion. You did do work on graphics, OOB, scenario's etc and 3 (new, Middle East, Vietnam, Cold War) titles at $55 is warranted. Three more titles at $55 ( The older titles by Talon Soft) each is not as warranted in my opinion.

So I guess over all my opinion for an individual title such as Middle East is positive. My opinion of a 6 game series is different. I would also like to point out I had about 10 posts in the past 6 years. The fact I decided to start posting is a positive. I do not mean to come across negatively but I am trying to put things in perspective. We may just have to agree we all want a great game but have a different opinion with the publishers goals. I'm sorry if we don't see eye to eye there but please keep up the trend of making good games.



Warhorse -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 4:37:41 PM)

It's all good, guy![:)]



Jason Petho -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 4:42:35 PM)

Thanks everyone for the kind words.

They are very encouraging to hear and gives that extra drive to ensure we continue to release good products for you!

Here's to the future!

Jason Petho



berto -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 4:59:38 PM)


About unbundling the old JTCS trio into three separate, standalone games:

There's simply no way going forward that we would continue to upgrade ("mega patch") three-games-in-one with well over 700 scenarios and many thousands of data files total. Whether as a freebie (which last year's JTCS 2.0* was), or as an all-in-one $40-50 new game. That's way too much content for a mid-priced game. (Don't forget the "living game" part and the promise of post-release new content and back ported engine updates.) If that were the proposition, JTCS 2.02 would be the end of the line, no more EF, WF or RS updates of any kind, finis.

Just as Middle East is not a rehashed Divided Ground; rather, is a brand new game rebuilt from the bottom up (data-wise, that is); WF 3.0, EF 3.0 & RS 3.0 will not be rehashes of the old JTCS games. The plan for them too will be to rebuild them from the bottom up. Substantially or mostly new data, all forms. By then, the engine will be substantially revamped also. Many of the new subsystems in Middle East are entirely new code. By the time WF 3.0 rolls around, even some of the older subsystems will be replaced with entirely new, or mostly new, code.

So, no more rehashing of the old games; rather, much renewing. At all levels. New wine in adapted bottles. Drink up. [sm=party-smiley-012.gif]



VegasOZ -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 5:03:10 PM)

The price is very fair for the quality of the product.



alwaysdime -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 5:43:42 PM)

When you do East Front/ West Front/ Rising Sun can we expect all existing scenario's to be upgraded to the new Middle East 1.0 engine or will do do a partial list? Also any thought to the UI issues I mentioned like attacking hex versus targeting hex and the move double time?



berto -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 5:51:50 PM)


Yes. We would be foolish not to do our utmost to preserve backward compatibility. Adapting all 700+ scenarios will be the goal. Adding new scenarios too.

Yes, the UI will continue to evolve.

The "new Middle East 1.0 engine"? Well, by then it will the "new WF 3.0 engine". A year or two later (because in between the plan is to release the Korean War game), it will be the "new EF 3.0 engine". And so on. Always evolving, always improving. That's The Plan.



budd -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 6:21:34 PM)

I posted the same question in CS forum regarding revamping all the scenarios and campaigns, thanks for putting my mind at ease. For me, if the content is the same as in all scenarios and campaigns revamped with the new features then the they will all be a day one buy for me. What about the DCG's going forward any conclusion by the team on that yet.



BradK82 -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 8:37:07 PM)

I remember buying EF then WF then RS from TS not some bundle. Apparently they liked getting paid for their efforts also. As for updating an old engine vs creating one de novo and evolving it in either case I am sure both would have it's headaches. The bottom line to me is that customers will either like what they do with it or not and support them accordingly. Right now I personally will give them the benefit of the doubt, I believe they have worked hard enough to earn it.



Jason Petho -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/26/2015 9:26:53 PM)

Thank you for the kind words and understanding, Brad!

Jason Petho



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 2:58:48 AM)

A couple of observations, after playing a bit.

1) As noted in the pre-release threads, even if a scenario says "HTH," you certainly can profitably play it solo. I'm playing around with Musketeer Revisited as the French and British, and it's working well enough, though the turns of course are a bit lengthy for the AI, as there are a lot of Egyptians.

2) There are a few UI things that I'd like to see worked on. One is the zoom via mousewheel, addressed elsewhere. Another is the linking of F3 to the specific unit selected, also addressed elsewhere. Beyond that though, here's a few that come to mind:

*On the F2 screen, you can hit R for range, but you can't hit R to remove the window. Seems counter intuitive.
*On the jump map, hitting J again doesn't remove the map (this has been an issue with all of Tiller's games for some reason). Again, unintuitive, if minor.
*I don't see any way to really tell what the hexside modifiers are for a hex, or even to tell definitively what the hexsides are, other than by referencing the illustrations in the manual. I may have missed something, but I'd love a feature as in the Panzer Campaigns games, where if you right-click on the info box for a hex, it gives you the hexside features (road, rail, river, etc.).
*Speaking of unit boxes, if you have U selected for the unit stack, the little game graphic makes reading the hex info hard, as the text gets washed out by the illustrations of the tanks or whaever. Minor, but annoying.
*Is there a chart of the 2D counter symbols used? I know most of 'em, but some are a bit different than I'm used to. I may have missed this one.
*Quite often, ctrl+key combos simply don't work. I think it may be a modality issue, as the game beeps when you try the command but it works from the drop down menus. OpFire is one, addressed in other threads, but pretty much all of them have this issue. It's mentioned in the manual so it may not be fixable, but it's annoying.
*I've tried to fire smoke and have had zero success, but I don't know why, even when the unit has "SmokeFiring" or whatever listed as one of its abilities.
*The counter colors are sometimes too closes to each other. For instance, in Musketeer, the Brits and Egyptians, both 3D bases and 2D counters, are really similar. I've, um, attacked my own guys this way.

The AI seems pretty decent. I'm no great player for sure, but I'm seeing mostly decent moves from the AI. Except for one thing--trucks that rolled into a hex my guys held, and just stayed there. Usually, the AI rolls loaded trucks up to the front, drops off guys, and runs the trucks away. That's what I'd expect. Occasionally, though, I've seen the AI drive into a hex filled with (in this case) British paras, and then sit there, forcing me to assault or fire into my own hex to get rid of them! Ballsy bastards, to be sure.

As for graphics in general, clearly a lot of work went into this. It still has the legacy of its age, so no, you aren't going to get full Maya 3D modeled units and state of the art normal mapping, but hey, the stuff is recognizable and generally good looking (though I wiah there was an even closer zoom, as I run a 24" monitor). The 2D counters are very helpful; thanks a bunch for those.

Definitely worth forty bucks.



budd -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 4:14:41 AM)

are these the counter symbols your talking about. there some new ones i didn't recognize either.
As far as smoke, do you have a smoke allotment in the scenario? bottom of the screen says how much smoke is available for the scenario, the smoke symbol bottom left. Usually if you can't do something there is a message on the bottom bar that tells you why, it's helped me a bunch. I'd also like to be able to keep the jump map on screen if i choose, for large maps it makes it easy to get around.


[image]local://upfiles/32191/B5BF3FF8A2BD4111AAD6643FC3905352.jpg[/image]



Crossroads -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 6:24:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

A couple of observations, after playing a bit.

[snip]

*On the F2 screen, you can hit R for range, but you can't hit R to remove the window. Seems counter intuitive.
*On the jump map, hitting J again doesn't remove the map (this has been an issue with all of Tiller's games for some reason). Again, unintuitive, if minor.
*I don't see any way to really tell what the hexside modifiers are for a hex, or even to tell definitively what the hexsides are, other than by referencing the illustrations in the manual. I may have missed something, but I'd love a feature as in the Panzer Campaigns games, where if you right-click on the info box for a hex, it gives you the hexside features (road, rail, river, etc.).
*Speaking of unit boxes, if you have U selected for the unit stack, the little game graphic makes reading the hex info hard, as the text gets washed out by the illustrations of the tanks or whaever. Minor, but annoying.
*Is there a chart of the 2D counter symbols used? I know most of 'em, but some are a bit different than I'm used to. I may have missed this one.
*Quite often, ctrl+key combos simply don't work. I think it may be a modality issue, as the game beeps when you try the command but it works from the drop down menus. OpFire is one, addressed in other threads, but pretty much all of them have this issue. It's mentioned in the manual so it may not be fixable, but it's annoying.
*I've tried to fire smoke and have had zero success, but I don't know why, even when the unit has "SmokeFiring" or whatever listed as one of its abilities.
*The counter colors are sometimes too closes to each other. For instance, in Musketeer, the Brits and Egyptians, both 3D bases and 2D counters, are really similar. I've, um, attacked my own guys this way.



Thank you for your ideas and feedback! Here's a few comments:

  • Range, Jump map; duly noted.
  • Hexside Modifiers, ditto
  • Unit Box: now that you mention it, the hex info is written as-is, while Unit info are inserted within their Infoboxes. We'd need to consider a 'Terrainbox' for instance. Meanwhile: I can put together an all-black Blankbox with no graphics as a mod, would that help?
  • Counter info. Do you refer to the 420 or so NATO icons? I can put together a PDF with them all explained, if helps?
  • Ctrl+key modality; agreed, annoying at times. Since I use shortcuts extensively, and have the Hex Infobox on (U-key), what helps is I move the mouse over the particular unit Infobox on the side, and then the ctrl+key works. Go figure.
  • Smoke: as Budd mentioned, are you sure you had smoke available?
  • Counter colors; with Brits I tried to stick to their color as with Panzer Leader counters. Some of them are close to one another. They are easy to mod, I am hoping to see a lot of counter variants soon in the Mod forum!

    Cheers,



    • VegasOZ -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 6:36:48 AM)

    I seem to be missing a scenario.

    You know, the one where the IDF slashes through the hapless Arabs like Crap Through a Goose...

    Ya, that one. I don't seem to have it.

    Has anyone else found that they are missing that scenario too?


    LOL



    Crossroads -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 6:44:32 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: VegasOZ

    I seem to be missing a scenario.

    You know, the one where the IDF slashes through the hapless Arabs like Crap Through a Goose...

    Ya, that one. I don't seem to have it.

    Has anyone else found that they are missing that scenario too?


    LOL


    It is there! Look harder... It is the one where you're playing the Arabs. That's how I found them [:D]



    76mm -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 7:15:35 AM)

    I totally agree about the hexside info and UnitBox. Which file do we need to mod for a solid color blankbox? Also, hopefully someone will post a blank music file for the startup screen.

    I also have a couple of UI suggestions:
    1) Please show objectives on the max zoom out map and the jump map; don't need to show victory points obviously, but just show a colored highlight where they are (like in Panzer Campaigns). On some of the bigger maps it is hard to orient yourself otherwise.

    2) Would it be possible to add a toggle to show units which have moved OR fired? I see the toggles for units which moved and units which fired, but often I just want to see if a unit hasn't done anything at all yet...

    3) As Wombat mentioned, there are a lot of funky NATO symbols in the game--I thought I knew them all but it looks like I was mistaken... Is there a list of the symbol types in the manual?

    4) I have to say that for the first time ever I've found myself playing in 3D mode--the terrain is much easier to read in 3D, and the 3D icons are pretty good at max zoom, although pretty much indistinguishable once you zoom out at all. That said, I really like the beautiful, crisp 2D NATO counters--is there a way to use the 3D terrain with the 2D counters?

    5) I'm sure this is a matter of personal taste, but I'd prefer a bit more monotone movement sound effects; currently the game often sounds more like a construction yard than a battlefield as units move around, jeeps sound like they have sirens, etc.

    6) Again, a minor point, but while I'm at it: the various opening screens (for scenario selection, etc.) are really kind of clunky. On the scenario selection screen for example, isn't there a way that we can use a scroll bar and choose scenarios with the mouse rather than using the up/down arrows? I know it is a minor thing but seeing a 1980s-style GUI as the first thing when you enter the game is a bit off-putting and generally inconsistent with the otherwise excellent quality of graphics in the game.

    7) I suspect that this is user-error, but I am having a really hard time keeping track of which units belong to which formations; I know that there is a organization toggle, but I'm having a hard time understanding it--sometimes I click on a unit and a few other units are highlighted, other times practically every unit on the map lights up, and I don't see how to tell which unit is which... In the Panzer Campaigns games, you could tell by right clicking on the unit box, is there similar functionality here? (I'm still reading the manual, so please excuse if this is explained there).

    Sorry for the constructive criticism but since you will be improving the game over the next few years I want to make sure that these minor points are raised earlier rather than later.



    Crossroads -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 7:47:46 AM)

    Thanks 76mm, everyone, keep those ideas coming in [:)]

  • I am putting later today a mod out with an all-black Blankbox0 graphic (The one used in the sidebar, which in official lingo is called 'Hex Infobox')
  • Also later today, a document explaining all NATO symbols.

    As for the Highlight Organization, it highlights within the context of the unit selected. To see the full organization, you'd need to select the desired HQ or Commander, then the full organization they command would be highlighted.

    Front End UI improvement is on our wishlist. Not for CS:ME 1.01 (minor updates) I am afraid (assuming here though) but perhaps for Vietnam, and then retrospectively to CS:ME 1.1 (major updates).

    The key difference bw. 2D and 3D views is that with 3D every unit has its own set of graphics files. There's hundreds of them. With 2D, the graphic files are nation specific sets, which themselves can contain many icons. Intermixing the two is not likely an easy task.

    Sound files. I have purchased a new Sound Editor, so maybe with it I can achieve a common dynamic level to all sound files...



    • Crossroads -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 7:52:34 AM)

    Everyone:

    We've already got quite an extensive Wish List for CS:ME 1.01 and Vietnam by ourselves, so no deadlines for new stuff. Important ones take priority, minor nags might take a while, some of them will never be implemented, likely.

    Just a friendly reminder before anyone gets their hopes too high.

    [:)]



    76mm -> RE: Review: First Impressions (9/27/2015 8:27:46 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads
    As for the Highlight Organization, it highlights within the context of the unit selected. To see the full organization, you'd need to select the desired HQ or Commander, then the full organization they command would be highlighted.

    But my problem is I don't know which unit is the desired HQ...I click on highlight HQ and see which units are HQs, but what unit do they command? Then I highlight organization and see what units they command, but not the name of the unit, higher units, etc. Like I said, I think I'm missing something here...

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads
    Front End UI improvement is on our wishlist. Not for CS:ME 1.01 (minor updates) I am afraid (assuming here though) but perhaps for Vietnam, and then retrospectively to CS:ME 1.1 (major updates).

    Cool; not a big priority as a purely cosmetic issue but I think putting some lipstick on the old girl might help with sales.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads
    The key difference bw. 2D and 3D views is that with 3D every unit has its own set of graphics files. There's hundreds of them. With 2D, the graphic files are nation specific sets, which themselves can contain many icons. Intermixing the two is not likely an easy task.

    Thanks, it sounds like it is not as easy as copying the NATO symbol files into the 3D folder, so I'll shelve that idea for now. I do enjoy playing in 3D in max zoom, but not once zoomed out at all.

    One more issue with 3D--there does not seem to be a "hot spot" indicator for the selected hex in 3D? Directly related to this point, is there any way to cancel an air attack? Because of the lack of a hot spot indicator, I just accidentally called an airstrike on some of my own units.



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