RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (Full Version)

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geofflambert -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/7/2015 8:32:48 PM)

Hah! I think I just complained about it again, wink wink. [:'(]



Feltan -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 1:59:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Hah! I think I just complained about it again, wink wink. [:'(]


This is a known gorn trick. We are no longer surprised.

Regards,
Feltan



Dili -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 5:19:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

One mans design decision is another mans bug. I fail to see any issue with that. It's called a disagreement. People do that. It doesn't mean they are stupid. Different goals = different methods.

I'd love to read more, but, have yet to find a good reason for the decision. Not that anyone needs my approval of course, but, it does help to understand. All of the reasons in this thread for the way it is are not reasons at all IMHO, not the slightest bit convincing or even reasonable. If anyone has a link to the specific discussion providing said reasons, it might prove useful. Just have not found it yet. I would love to read it!

I personally *like* not having every unit do everything I want, that's just not reasonable either. But, PM vs Guad is hard to imagine as something intended, it's indefensible in my mind, at least at present. Perhaps it was intended, maybe I will find the thread one day. Maybe, it will even be convincing, who knows. Or at least more understandable. Perhaps lots of you have read it, I have not. I am newer. But, a student of the Pacific war.

If it's a design decision due to the desire to get things done and out in some given timeframe, I get that, and I would not call that a bug either. But, that does not mean a newer version of the game shouldn't improve upon it. We should all want to improve things.



Ok just to clearify a few things.

My comment was not directed at you but at a player who is part of the community for so long that he should know better.




That player would be me you don't need to say "should know better" and give veiled answers.

Your point is of a near threat, it is valid point but well you "should know better" that search detection works for 4 hexes 360º regardless of search arc chosen probably for that reason, neither my point was to have only arcs. Like in search you could use them or not.

It would not add any increased game complexity because dealing with the issue we have tricks of playing with range and airbase location is in my opinion more game work than using a search attack arc in the cases it warrants.

It is also nearer real life operational, it is common to have operational areas or sectors to prevent waste of resources and friendly fire.


I wonder is this issue is more apparent to Japanese players due to more extreme range of their LBA.





sfatula -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 6:32:42 AM)

quote:


From the discussion here it is clear that you are a new player getting accustomed to the game by familiarising yourself with the mechanics and by learning how to play using the small scenarios. Since this is the baseline to form your opinion it is understandable that your conclusions miss the big picture. I do not have an issue with that. The games´ learning curve is steep and many players spend years playing before grasping some aspects of the game and their context.

100% true! But I've played wargames for 30 some years, of all sizes, and, there are always design decisions, etc. Nevertheless, I like to know and understand limitations, workarounds, etc. I've won several tournaments on the board games of old.

quote:


The heart of the game is not the Guadalcanal scenario. The heart of the game is the grand campaign, spanning the entire pacific war - versus the AI but really excels when playing against another human - and supports turn lenght longer than 1 day. This is where the design focus needs to be, and this is the baseline from where design decisions have been made.


Yes, it's just in this one scenario, the setup happens to be Guad and PM at the same distance, and, Milne within the range of Guad, and, Guad and PM both key targets that the game hinges on, which makes it very odd to play as the Japanese side without getting gamed. The betties do attack Milne or PM instead of Guad, very few ways to deal with it. Some tricks, I read those, but, they're just that, tricks. I guess, one just has to have a sort of agreement not to do so as much as possible perhaps. Yes, turn length > 1 day is a consideration, but, it would be wiser *not* to use the attack arcs in those cases of course. If they even existed. The player can still cope, so, it's not a weakness of search arcs. But, yes, there are other issues that could crop up.

quote:

To sum it up, yes I understand why a new player like yourself reaches conclusions like you did, but I would ask you to take into account that you yet know only a fraction about what WitP is about and how it has to be played.


Trust me, I agree, also 100% true.

quote:

That the absence of a feature to designate naval attack sectors is not a bug and no design mistake. This is not a PoV thing.


Ok, don't call it a bug, I don't believe I did. But, I was merely wondering about an improvement. From reading other messages, sounds like not likely. And it sounds like it's been discussed before, perhaps extensively. Did not mean to start a war in the forums, the war in the game is enough!

But, playing with semantics is still a little annoying, oh well. Obviously, I never intended to say I gave orders to do an attack near Guad as obviously that's not possible. I of course know that, so, saying I *meant* that is a tad off base. Meanings are in people, NOT words. But, I do get with us newbies, you never know!

I appreciate all of the comments nevertheless. It's clear this forum has a lot of active people.



geofflambert -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 3:45:57 PM)

And a lot of quiet people who are just spying on us. [:-]



sfatula -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 4:18:46 PM)

Ah, the guy who isn't complaining any more!



Alfred -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 6:33:06 PM)

LoBaron (and previously witpqs and the Gorm) has only briefly touched on the difficulties involved in attempting to implement the suggestions which have been advanced in this thread.  We are not dealing with semantics here and the recoding would involve the guts of the engine.  Contrary to what has been asserted, there are no relevant pre-existing hooks.

No need for me to go into any details in view of the dismissal of LoBaron's correct observations.  Unlike so many who always find it easy to suggest how AE can be improved, LoBaron actually works in IT testing and reads what the devs have actually stated.

Alfred



sfatula -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/8/2015 8:52:52 PM)

And I have been an IT consultant for 35 years, doing programming, system analysis, and, many other such disciplines as well. Including a fortune 20 company, and, currently, one of the largest internet retailers for which I do all of the backend stuff. Even wrote a few games years ago, and the AI. So, yes, I know what you are saying. It IS always easy to suggest for he that does not have to write the code. But even for he who does not have access to the code, things could be fairly trivial, or, they could be a nightmare. No good way to know, obviously, you do.

The general way it works is the things that sounds easiest are the hardest, and, the things people might not even ask as they seem impossible, turn out to be mostly already coded! At least sometimes.



geofflambert -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/9/2015 1:33:52 AM)

And I have been an idiot for a much longer time than you've been a consultant. So there. Let this be a lesson to me. Thing is, when you say "code", I have nightmares.



sfatula -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/9/2015 1:35:57 AM)

Gives you an idea how ancient I am!



postfux -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/9/2015 5:47:19 PM)

I am aware offering my opinion is about as wise as a byciclist trying to settle a dispute between two motorcycle gangs whose bikes are more badass, but I am not the most clever guy in town.

As far as I know ships anchored in port are attacked by port strike not by naval strike. Same should be the case for docked TFs (dont know if it is). Same should be the case for undocked TFs at least when they are un/loading.

Most TFs are in friendly base hexes for some harbour related reason. So more often than not they would be seen anchored like ships not organised in TFs. Air combat TFs get penalties in base hexes. Base CAP extends to all TFs even ones that would be considered steaming around at sea.

That brings up the question whether it is a good design decision that TFs in friendly base hexes get targeted by naval strike.




HansBolter -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/9/2015 6:01:59 PM)

While not an expert I have been playing for some time and I can attest that ships deployed in TFs on the map whether docked or not cannot be hit by port strike missions.

Port strike missions hit ships disbanded in to the port and not represented on the map by a TF marker.



Justus2 -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/10/2015 2:34:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Having a level of self preservation for the naval bombing crews would be much nicer. Like them having the discretion to not attack heavily capped minor ships, in port or somewhere else. As it stands, a group of torpedo bombers will attack a single cargo ship that has a very strong cap and just die for nothing. This is a definitive flaw in the game.


They do have some level of self-preservation, as many times an unescorted bomber group will either not fly, or will turn back, when encountering heavy CAP. Again, it is one of the many random die rolls.

If anything, (and I'm not sure anything needs changed), I could better justify treating TFs in a port hex considered as in port, so that port strikes have a chance to strike both active TFs and anchored (disbanded, non-TF ships), and 'Naval Attack' would avoid attacking TFs in ports. If you are attacking a specific base, I dont think the pilots would ignore ships just because they were under way, but still in or near the harbor. On the other hand, ships ordered to attack ships in the open sea (Naval Attack), would probably not go looking around defended ports.



Dili -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/10/2015 3:59:06 AM)

The issue here it is a attack aircrafts getting whacked by CAP because they went for a PT TF in a port instead of a TF in a total different direction. Inability to give attack sectors make necessary to have huge attack formations or just don't interdict when this situation happens.

In my experience this happens in 3 important situations in Japanese side. To interdict South China Sea, it is inevitable that a a bomber formation based on Saigon ends up over Singapore. There is also some risk in Manila for bombers base on Formosa but less so because the anti-air operation starts from beginning too so the enemy CAP over Manila is being degraded from day one . The other are for the squadrons based on Rabaul. You can never let them attack shipping in Guadalcanal because they might went to Port Moresby.



Yaab -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/10/2015 7:06:06 AM)

Actually, Naval Attack works fairly well for CV-based aircraft in open seas, mainly because those free roaming missions are 90% escorted. It doesn't work for LBA aircraft though, since you get highest chances of fighter escort if you select a destination for the attack. Since there is no destination in LBA Naval Attack missions, the fighters are a no-show most of the time. Reacting into Port Moresby is bad enough, reacting into Port Moresby without fighter escort is just catastrophic. I guess the escort routine for CVs is different --- units flying from the same CV have highest chances of escorted strike than LBA units flying from the same base.



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! (10/10/2015 1:03:44 PM)

Just take Port Moresby [:'(]



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