RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (Full Version)

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FelixCulpa -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/14/2015 9:51:53 PM)

Hello,
Picked up WiTE when it appeared on Steam, so a newbie to the game.
Very impressive looking update. Perhaps shelling out so much for a 2010/11 game was not such a silly idea!
Great to see Matrix continuing interest in the title.
Thx



Icier -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/14/2015 10:32:31 PM)

Hi, just checked the members download & nothing posted in original WITE ..there is an update in
Danube scenario, has it been posted to wrong one?[&:]



Erik Rutins -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/14/2015 11:04:03 PM)

Hi Ice,

Did you register your copy of WITE? If you registered it, any beta updates should show up for you.

Regards,

- Erik



Icier -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/14/2015 11:05:03 PM)

Hi All, Found it...who is a dumb bunny?



pellejoens -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 3:30:49 AM)

I tried to download the patch several times from Matrix the last 18h. Every time it stops when it's only 2mb left.



charlie0311 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 3:46:29 AM)

Thing are getting better in WITE/Matrix land. Looks like you guys are really maxing on effort.

My contract as whiner in chief has finally expired, now I am going to apply for "ass-kisser" in chief :)



Tejszd -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 6:30:31 AM)

Thanks for the continued support/updates to the game!



sillyflower -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 8:25:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Yes morvael- AP is a massive reason for this...something not considered it seems.

You need the cavalry early in the war 41-43 to survive....after which you have spent a ton of AP making sure they have support units are in proper armies and built.....then if you just disband them all where does that leave the Soviet Player?

Ohhh it leaves them with nothing to show for a ton of wasted extremely limited AP. Without those 20 Cav Corps good luck taking the war back to the Germans on anything like a historical time frame. As the game has such limited Soviet AP and such limited Soviet trucks you cant build more mobile units, you cant build enough rifle corps and artillery divisions to effectively attack the massive German army in late 1942-1943 without those 20 cav corps.

Soviet Tank and Mech corps are virtually useless until late 1942 based on how the game models them at current. I mean completely useless against how powerful the game has modeled the Germans. So, the Soviets will need the cav corps to survive 1942....we have already seen what happens in several games to Soviet players that dont build alot of Cav Corps to blunt German 1942 offensives....they lose badly, and much worse losses than historical....if not outright lose the game.

You can look at my AAR vs Pelton and Im sure easily see that the Cav Corps are the only thing that held my Soviet Army together all of 1942. You can probably also look and see that the 20+ cav corps are the only reason Im successfully driving him back in early 1943. An now your saying ohh its unhistorical and it shouldnt work that way?

Then how do you propose the Germans are ever defeated in the game? I dont see any buffs to Soviet offensive capability at all in this patch just nerfs. Some of us like to actually play the game not just be a punching back until the NM changes to the point the Soviets auto-win.

Viga-Yes the -5 Morale to Soviet cav and the NM change keeps them roughly the same as current for Mar-OCT 1942 after that now the Soviet Cav corps will be weaker from OCT 1942 to the end of the war while this patch just increased German NM.

I disagree with the change and have better things to do with my time than spend months playing a game getting my butt kicked with almost no ability to fight back for 1941/1942....and then to have a patch make the soviets ability to fight in 1943 be greatly reduced as well. Its just not worth my time is how i see it.

Also Cav Corps build/rebuilding- good horses an such----well Cav squads cost a ton more armaments points to build than infantry squads...more motivation for the Germans to take industry IMO. So this cost is already built into the unit. If you want less cavalry LW then make them harder to build/cost more AP in Latewar. Give more motivation for the German player to encircle and destroy cav corps in the EW period. Historically most were encircled and destroyed. If I as the Soviet player dont get them all wiped out why should I penalized????

Germans are getting the Stalingrad units refunded if they arent wiped out...if I dont get all my cavalry corps wiped out why are the Soviets penalized???? good question right.




I almost always play as Russian, and I too love my (overpowered) cav xxx and will have to spend APs (but not months' worth) re-organising their commanders in my game vs Manstein which has reached Feb '43.

I have to say that I think the changes to cav xxx are relatively minor in the overall scheme of things and I accept Morvael's rationale for the change. Looking at the 43+ TOEs, their make-up and the way I use them is far more appropriately classified as mech for the commander's skill rating than inf. As to the CV drop, the '42 morale improvements of the rest of the army more than compensate in terms of game balance.



charlie0311 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 9:07:42 AM)

Ah, the mighty continue to return, I am so happy.

What greater shame you ask? Easy, be, charlie0311 for a short time:)



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 12:15:35 PM)

Silly- all told to perfectly organize/re-organzie your command and control your looking at about 1 month of AP. As an army move is something like 30 AP alone.

With the change to mech you will want all you cav corps under mech army commanders with a front commander also with a 5+ mech skill. In my case my shock armies are all in different fronts, so to make this fix will take moving 5 shock armies to one of the new front commands or splitting them between a new front command and my tank front. Thats alot of AP on top of all the commander changes. Didnt even switch out all the commanders this turn and it cost most of one turns AP, and overall I lost 1-2 points of combat leadership not to mention possibly other stats on each commander change.

Went from 6/7 infantry skill to 5 mech skill on 2-3 commanders and 6 infantry to 6 mech on another. However this now takes most the remaining decent mech leaders the soviet army had and I still need at least 2-3 more tank armies formed just to Command and control the rest of tank/mech corps. Not to mention some of these commanders had to be stolen from other posts so at some point will need to fix the less than stellar commander the computer just put in charge. An most lost skills in other categories to like admin/ initiative/morale.

As I said I went from very good command and control to crappy command and control due to a 1 turn ToE change, and it takes about 1 month of AP roughly 200 or so to fix this. Thats what bothers my about the change. As you will need those infantry leaders in charge until FEB 1943+ so your going to eat the AP cost no matter what. The only way to adjust for this is form a shock army front in late 1941 and keep all shock armies under one front.

Still debating if this is good or not, I go back and forth...all shock armies able to work together is good but then you eat penalties when working with your infantry fronts/tank fronts. So not sure I like it all under one front but thats what this change will force if you dont want to waste a months AP later in the game. Right now im liking how having 1 shock army per front is working out as in conjunction with artillery and infantry corps it means each front can conduct offensives with some mobility with no massive penalties and it keeps pressure up all along the front.

Thats why I consider it a massive change. I would like to see changes to ToEs that make the German players spend 1 months AP for no benefit..........



morvael -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 12:56:53 PM)

Changes to on-going games are usually painful, because they were set up in the long run for different meta. loki100 knows best about it. He just survied entire period of 40 NM, and just left it when 40 NM is gone (and he can expect Germans to be tougher now, but in his own defensive period he was weaker). So he suffered most and got nothing in return. Changing patch during a long game is not advised, unless you can accept such upheaval without grumbling. When played from the start and setting up the army right, cavalry changes would be a non-issue.

Really, there should be just one patch per 2 years for this game, so all could play and finish some games in constant meta. Therefore there will be no big patches after .05 (with WitE2 on horizon). Only small fixes, if necessary.



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 4:52:05 PM)

Ehh I like to complain about things that dont make sense.

I still say if you want them to be mech they should be mech from day 1 so I can assign mech commanders and be done with it.

Other option would be to make forming Cav Corps free to make up for the AP tax your going to get hit with in 1943 when the ToE changes.

I know you dont seem to think the horses/armamanets is equal but look at how much in armaments the cav cost to maintain all those cav corps eats into Soviet armaments alot that really is penalty enough.

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...is so many non-historical things on both sides, and in all honesty horses werent something either side lacked...both sides used massive amounts of horses. The reason the Soviets moved to more mechanized units is because historically they could due to lend lease. German generals even talk about the battles after 1943 and how Soviet mobility allowed them to get more men out of bad situations and reduce the Germans ability to inflict losses and completely destroy soviet units and material.



Zebedee -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 4:52:07 PM)

Thank you guys. Really looking forward to trying this.



loki100 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 5:13:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ehh I like to complain about things that dont make sense.

I still say if you want them to be mech they should be mech from day 1 so I can assign mech commanders and be done with it.

Other option would be to make forming Cav Corps free to make up for the AP tax your going to get hit with in 1943 when the ToE changes.

I know you dont seem to think the horses/armamanets is equal but look at how much in armaments the cav cost to maintain all those cav corps eats into Soviet armaments alot that really is penalty enough.

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...is so many non-historical things on both sides, and in all honesty horses werent something either side lacked...both sides used massive amounts of horses. The reason the Soviets moved to more mechanized units is because historically they could due to lend lease. German generals even talk about the battles after 1943 and how Soviet mobility allowed them to get more men out of bad situations and reduce the Germans ability to inflict losses and completely destroy soviet units and material.


problem is training a horse well enough to move say artillery under conditions of combat is a challenge, to train one this well takes some time:



[image]local://upfiles/43256/9846C19871D34A5E973A04583316F2C6.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 5:33:33 PM)

Well since the CV is seemingly now tied to what Morvael described as "good horses" I am wondering which ones are firing the rifles?



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 5:41:20 PM)

Loki- Typically the horse didnt go right into the frontlines. WW2 Cavalry untis were mounted infantry. Once close to the front they dismounted and a handler took the horses to the rear to avoid the horses being wiped out. Which was another of the reasons the soviets moved away from Cavalry was they were manpower intensive since a couple extra men in each squad were needed just to remove and care for the squads horses away from the battlefield.

However since only the guys that run die in WiTE both sides have plenty of men to do menial work behind the frontlines lol.

Because a squad on horse will cover more ground more quickly than a squad on foot---infantry divisions in WW2 were just that, infantry on foot with only heavy equipment having any type of transportation.

This was common in all WW2 armies that used cavalry units.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 6:37:47 PM)

quote:

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...


I concur with this but I would have used stronger language. [:D] This is just a nuisance for the Russian player.

But the patch has some really interesting stuff in it and I also would like to thank morvael for his efforts. [&o]



loki100 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 6:41:11 PM)

*ahem*: seems like these guys didn't get the message?





[image]local://upfiles/43256/FFBF539F8C3C4D9AB2C4BF6E2C96B0A7.jpg[/image]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 6:45:52 PM)

quote:

*ahem*: seems like these guys didn't get the message?


As a history professor you should know that one picture doesn't proof anything. What's next? Quotes from Wikipedia pages? [:D]



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 7:55:37 PM)

yes those guys were when my cavalry were brand new conscripts from from their Steppe huts.......now they are battle hardened and fight as proper mounted infantry [8D]



c00per -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 8:36:40 PM)

I want bicycle troops , but seriously the update looks good to me. Sure some soviet troops got morale reduction, but 80% of the army got a morale improvement. The way I look at any game is the more debate and heated controversy is a good sign of a balanced game. If everyone agreed with the umpires then no need to play the game.



mooreshawnm -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/15/2015 9:16:12 PM)

Just started a 41-45 GC on Saturday. It is the German turn 4. Will it be a problem if we update at this time?



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 2:01:51 AM)

moore- if you guys just started would suggest to restart with current patch. As alot of OOB and under the hood changes to logistics were put in.

You can continue u on as current but none of the OOB changes will be in effect unless you start a game under the new patch is my understanding.



JamesM -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 7:18:13 AM)

There is an issue with withdrawing air groups to National reserve on the Soviet side when sorting aircraft into airbases and aircraft model via the Commander's Report. If you select airbase or type of aircraft from the initial list into alphabetical order then zoom to the specific aircraft type or air base you cannot withdraw the aircraft into the National reserve (if you select the individual air group you can withdraw to national reserve from the information screen). However, if you zoom to the type of aircraft or airbase from an unsorted list you can withdraw the aircraft to national reserve via the Commander's report.



morvael -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 7:52:11 AM)

For a while I'll just be collecting the reports (with links to posts), so don't expect fast answers to each report, but be aware they are not lost.



charlie0311 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 7:56:20 AM)

Oh, crap, and dad gum it. Is this also the case if you sort by morale?



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 3:57:48 PM)

quote:

103. The chance to rout and retreat losses will be now slightly affected by final combat odds divided by 5 (so between 1:4.99 and 4.99:1 there should be no change, but beyond those ratios losses may be larger and rout may happen more often, also for units with morale above 55).


An interesting change but why only "slightly affected?" Should the odds play a much bigger role. Another suggestion would be to make regiments route/shatter faster depending on combat odds. I've had games were the entire flank of a German army group was protected by a bunch of unroutable security regiments. [:D] Would be cool to be able to route or shatter these tiny units. Same goes for Russian NKVD regiments.



Kursk1943 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 4:26:36 PM)

Regarding cavalry: I'm just reading the superb book "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars" about the Soviet offensive Nov 42 against the Rshew salient held by 9th Army. There is a vivid description from both the Soviet and the German side about 20th Army trying to support 6th Tank Corps by 2nd Guards Cav Corps. The Corps tried to bypass some German held strongpoints by a mounted attack with the result that some regiments were nearly wiped out by artillery and small arms fire within 2 hours. The Corps lost half of its strength that day. So much about losses in combat and about doctrine. It's not easy to stick to doctrine if you are pressed by both Konev as commander of the Western front and Zhukov as overall coordinator...[:D]



chaos45 -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 4:58:38 PM)

Yep which is my point if the Soviet player doesnt get all his cavalry wiped out why are they being penalized.



morvael -> RE: V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available (10/16/2015 5:13:25 PM)

IMHO the cavalry bonus for Soviet cavalry is not necessary at all. Time of being elite formation passed, these were regulars like rifles. Especially if one considers the speed with which these formations were wasted, destroyed and rebuilt.



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