RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (Full Version)

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Orm -> RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (11/2/2015 5:52:25 AM)

I see close air support as ground support. And ground support has less relevance when playing with the 2d10 table.

If you just count the number of soldiers, tanks, guns, and so on, when you count odds I could understand your point. But if you calculate a 'effective' combat value then it is a different thing. Then a division could get the same value as a army. Hence odds makes perfect sense in MWIF.

So you didn't like the first battle of France then what of the Allied invasion of France and the liberation of France. How many army sized counter attacks were there during this campaign?




Jagdtiger14 -> RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (11/2/2015 3:39:36 PM)

Oh, now I understand you concerning 'close air support'...I thought you also meant ground strikes.

I assume you play with fractional odds? Depending on how important an attack is, and where you are in the turn (late), all available ground support could likely be thrown into the caldron in a 2d10 battle (however, oil might be a factor).

I assume you are only focusing in the west? As you probably already know...by 1944, the tables were turned, and with little air power, Germany could not conduct any kind of mass counter-attack on the western front other than the one they did with the cover of weather. There was the German Operation 'Luttich' which involved XLVII Panzer corp, 1.5 SS Panzer div's, and two Wehrmacht Panzer div's.

Could the counter attacks at Salerno and Anzio be considered? What about the Tunisian campaign? What about Libya/Egypt 1940-42?




Orm -> RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (11/3/2015 7:03:58 PM)

I more or less consider all the campaigns and attacks you suggested to strengthen my point.

And I might have been focusing on the West in this discussion but that has more been because I have been lazy.




brian brian -> RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (11/15/2015 2:54:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
...but they also have to pay more attention to the terrain they attempt to hold. 1d10 with Blitz mods doesn't illustrate that nearly as much as 2d10.

How so? Half an odds column for AT is about it.



Paul asked this question a while back, I've been out on a job for several weeks. Yep, there are still places in the world where you can't have all of humanity at your fingertips (or play WiF or MWiF) 24/7. Thankfully those places frequently do have Trout to catch though.

Anyhow as Paul notes the AT gun modifier is the only difference between 1d10 and 2d10 in terms of armor modifiers, though 2d10 features a few other die mods at a finer scale (divisional).

Although a -1 on the 1d10 is nearly identical to a -2 on the 2d10, mostly due to the structure of the results table on the 1d10, with the bell curve of die results with 2d10 a -2 (basically an odds level) has more weight to it.

So when the defender commits their armor to hold clear terrain, it is a more significant decision, and is a way the defense can work the 2d10 table to their advantage, as they can with other specialty units, etc. Just ask the German Army Groups that attacked at Kursk.

2d10 lessens the "dice won/lost the game for player A/B" quite a bit. I'm fine with 2d10 helping a well-planned attack, the attack was on the ascendence in WWII.


As for whether WWII and MWiF was a counter-attacking war / game, I agree with Orm that the MWiF scale doesn't really represent that. On a tactical to operation level, I think most armies had a doctrine of Counter-Attack in general. But when operating Corps and Armies and Army Groups, you have to hold a little initiative to be able to Counter Attack. Sufficient reserves, supplies, etc., must be available and there must be enough freedom of action to plan a Counter Attack. When the enemy has launched a wide-scale theater level attack against you, the defender can rarely respond with a large-scale operation of it's own.

I do think WiF shows you this some however. Sure, in a 1941 Barbarossa the Russians can mount a Counter-Attack, even a nice one with a handful of MECH/ARM units and perhaps an Offensive Chit. But they will have little to back it up with in that they can't exploit much success and if such a Counter-Attack fails, there will be nothing behind it to cover that failure. I think it takes a fair amount of time playing wargames in general to learn when not to attack, and WiF does a good job representing that.




Jagdtiger14 -> RE: 1D10 vs 2D10 (11/16/2015 5:43:59 AM)

I agree WiF can not represent the true counter-attacking that occurred especially on the eastern front. Since both sides have perfect knowledge of what is where, etc... the operational/tactical counter attacking the Germans conducted in late 43/early 44 (48th Panzer corp actions as part of AGS) could only happen in a fog of war situation (perhaps that is a future computer WiF incarnation).

MWiF expansion: Fog in Flames.




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