"Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (Full Version)

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jacozilla -> "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 6:02:07 AM)

The description as far as affect on other units in an organized Fleet for both fleet combat targeting and fleet countermeasure modules seem self evident.

But two slightly vague scenarios I'm not sure of - anyone know or has a dev commented on this in past?

1 - Do fleet bonus modules - targeting and countermeasures - only affect the other units in a fleet, or does the ship with the fleet modules also benefit from the fleet module bonus?
e.g. If there are 10 regular ships in organized fleet + 1 'flagship' that has the fleet modules - do ALL 11 ships, including the 'flagship' with fleet bonus modules installed receive the bonuses? Or do you need to have 2 'flagships' or more in each fleet, in order for each of them to give the other 'flagship' the bonus as well?

Other way to put it - if the ship with fleet modules installed does not benefit directly from it, then I assume you would need at minimum 2 ships or more in each fleet with the installed fleet bonus modules in order for every ship, including the ships that give the bonuses, to receive their own bonuses.

2 - Related to the above, what constitutes a Fleet? Without overthinking it I assume it is an actual organized, named Fleet per the game's definition of tagging a group of ships as a Fleet.

If true, then I assume putting fleet modules on a base is useless? Or does anyone know if the base has fighters/bombers, are those units considered a 'fleet' that belongs to the base, and therefore fleet modules on bases with fighter/bombers would help?




Bingeling -> RE: "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 7:51:49 AM)

This is hard to test, noticing small bonuses in a game where numbers are not shown is tricky.

I would assume that it does exactly what it says it does. It works in fleet units, and the one equipping it gets the benefit. I would not be amazed if it also works on a single (unfleeted) ship with the module.

For me, having it on a base seems outside common logic. And the fighter scenario seems a bit beyond the "overthinking" limit.

As for flagships, having a single flagship does not seem like a too good idea in this game. I would just put the thing on every cruiser or larger, which is what I would put in my fleets.



jacozilla -> RE: "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 11:57:59 AM)

Agree re putting fleet modules on all ships that will be in a fleet to give greater redundancy. I just used the flagship example to make the scenario described easier to understand.

I've been putting fleet modules on every class of ship that i normally put in fleets - cruiser and up. I assume bases wouldnt really count as a fleet but had to ask.

So what is left is whether a solo ship that has the fleet modules gives that bonus to itself. For cruisers, capital ships and carriers - it's a moot point because i am going to design them to all carry fleet modules anyways since they regularly org into fleets.

But for resupply ships that very often operate solo, and for the lite classes that normally do escort and protect missions (DD, FG, and Escort classes) solo - i wondered if it was any benefit to have fleet modules on those ships or is waste of tonnage. Relatively speaking not much a waste even if doesnt work on resupply ships as they have lots of spare tonnage, but for the lite classes can't decide how to test whether it is worth it



Bingeling -> RE: "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 1:37:55 PM)

The way of testing that I can think of (which may be hard to impossible to set up).

1: Use the editor. And empty galaxy with no random distractions like pirates, enemies, space monsters.

2: Use an attacker that either have or do not have the module.

3: Create an opponent with no weapons and no flee setting. An lots of shields and stuff to make killing take time.

4: Time how long the attacker takes to kill the opponent.

It could be that this is not good enough. Try it a few times to find the spread in kill time. Try with more/less attacker weapons. Test the single ship damage modules that ought to work. If you see no systematic difference, the test is useless.

And if you are sure your test works, try with and without the fleet module.



Aeson -> RE: "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 2:16:02 PM)

My personal opinion is that the only time it's actually harmful to put fleet countermeasures and fleet targeting on a vessel intended for solitary operations is when you're looking at a ship that's already very tight on the power budget or very close to the ship's size cap. Making a 'small' vessel six size units larger than you might otherwise have done is not going to kill you; the lost speed is marginal (a size 106 ship has about 94% of the speed and turn rate of a size 100 ship with an identical engine configuration, and vessels with lower relative differences in size are going to have even more similar speeds), and the increased expense is marginal (you're probably looking at at least 20 or 30 ships before the difference in maintenance costs with and without the fleet targeting and countermeasures components means that if you skip the fleet components you could have a whole extra ship; this is not a big deal). I personally probably would not add life support and habitation modules just so that I could add fleet countermeasures and targeting components, nor would I be inclined to add an extra reactor if adding the fleet countermeasures and targeting components pushed the maximum power requirements above the available reactor output, but that's about all that would stop me from adding fleet targeting and countermeasures components if I already had everything else I wanted on the ship or station.


Regarding the testing:
Another possibility is to design a set of ships with a single weapon which have
- No targeting or fleet targeting components
- 1 targeting and no fleet targeting components
- No targeting and one fleet targeting components
- 1 targeting and one fleet targeting components
and a set of heavily-shielded targets which have
- No countermeasures or fleet countermeasures components
- 1 countermeasures and no fleet countermeasures components
- No countermeasures and one fleet countermeasures components
- One countermasures and one fleet countermeasures components
Next, count the total number of shots taken by each attacker against each type of target as well as the total number of hits achieved for each attacker/target pairing. I would strongly advise that all four targets should be identical in size, speed, acceleration, and turn rate as I would not be terribly surprised to learn that those four attributes had an impact upon hit rates (this is most easily done by making all of the targets stations).

One further possibility for testing is to design two ships which are identical but for the fact that one has a fleet targeting component and the other does not, then spawn ~100 of each in pairs using the editor with the pairs spread sufficiently far apart that you're looking at ~100 duels. If a statistically-significant number of the ships with fleet targeting components win their duels, you can say that it's at least potentially worthwhile to include fleet targeting components (try to avoid engagement stance settings which are likely to lead to stern chases as whichever ship is pursued gains a significant tactical advantage; assuming that the fleet components function on stations, space stations placed within range of one another's weapons would be ideal for testing). Then do the same but with Fleet Countermeasures instead of Fleet Targeting being the only difference. This is much easier than determining the time-to-kill or hit rates and is more or less a set-and-forget test.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: "Fleet" modules...solo and/or on bases? (10/28/2015 6:01:59 PM)

YMMV

I always considered 'Fleet' modules a waste.
If if you are going to use them, then they only make senss if the other ships in a fleet can benefit from a size/cost savings. If you are going to spread Fleet Modules to every unit, just go with the single ship modules for a higher and cheaper bonus.

Now if they offered some advantage, spreading target detection from LRS, a bonus on top of single ship modules or something, then maybe... Otherwise? Just say no.



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