CMANO - Gameplay tactics (Full Version)

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AlGrant -> CMANO - Gameplay tactics (11/22/2015 8:59:52 PM)

Just been typing up an AAR for NI #4 (which I'll post tomorrow) and there are a few gameplay tactics I find myself repeating, mostly for surf/subsurface. So, good or bad, I thought I'd put a couple of them down here.
Maybe they'll be of use to others, maybe others will tell me why these are not good tactics to use or offer alternative/better options.

So, in no particular order .....

1. I like to use Ref Points as markers on contacts that are likely to drop (outer limits of CZ/Sonobouys etc). I often rename the RP with the time of the contact, it can be a big help in keeping track of intermittent contacts and is easier that the "that contact was about there at about that time!" method I was using!
Even if not renamed, placing an RP on something like a Sonobouy can help build up the tactical picture.
[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14166007/NI-4-10.JPG[/image]
This was from my first *failed* attempt at Barents Sea Boomer, when the only sub contact I picked up was one of the R.N boats being sunk and the USS Whale got nuc'd in the last 15 seconds of scenario game time. However I think this image shows how named RP's can help (well they do for me!)


2. I have found that if my submarine has obviously been detected and I'm being engaged by more than one surf contact, going up to PD (even at quite close range) can be a worthwhile tactic. Yes it's risky, especially as there may be ASW aircraft overhead that could spot the periscope, but if you know for sure you've been detected (incoming torpedoes and warships being a good indicator of this!) it helps to get a quick/accurate fix on the surf contacts which speeds up getting a shot off at the target. It also means you are at a shallow enough depth that all your weapons can be launched (Subroc etc)

3. The Range and Bearing tool is really useful, but for a quick range from a particular unit or contact, simply click on a then look at the 'Map Cursor Databox' (I usually play with this along the bottom of the screen) and it gives the range from 'Sel' (the selected unit) to the cursor. I was surprised how long it took me to notice this one!

4. In the Northern Inferno campaign missions there are some additional files included, OPGEN, Threat Orbat etc. They are in the Scenarios>Northern Inferno>Files campaign number subdirectories.

It's good to have a read through these prior to starting the mission as they do contain additional info on the emitters and weapons you are likely to face. Be aware though that there are discrepancies in some of these messages!

5. Probably the biggest thing that has helped recently is that I've started keeping an AAR log (Word format) along with some screenshots. Including notes on my intended course of action as well as what's currently happening is a huge help with having something resembling a plan of action (it changes often!). It is especially useful when playing long scenarios. When resuming from a saved game a quick read back over the log and I know what is happening, why it's happening and what I was going to do about it.

6. When hunting my subs often operate inside the thermal layer, regularly above/below it to try gain contacts. I find that I seem to get detected less inside the layer than either above or below. I've read pages 132, 133 of the manual and not sure it should work this way, so I could easily be mistaken.

Very interested in hearing tactics others are using.





Gunner98 -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (11/23/2015 1:19:37 PM)

Some good ideas that I think I'll start using. Thanks

B




Amnectrus -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (11/24/2015 4:50:06 PM)

I've also just recently become a believer in operating inside the layer with subs. What would be really handy is if you could configure your towed array to float either below or above the layer, as according to the manual it always floats below, but sometimes I want to detect things running shallow.

For other tactics, I've also become a huge fan of OECM. There's IMO not enough visual indicators in the game to judge the effectiveness of ECM, like specifically which emitters are being jammed by which jammers, or the relative power of your jammers vs their radar, etc. Having some extra visualization on that would be great. But I've opened save games in the editor to see what effect my jamming is having, and it's amazing. Playing Operation Brass Drum, you only have 3 EA-18Gs, and very limited refueling assets, but using them carefully, I've been able to close to about half of max AMRAAM range in A2A combat without risk, which greatly increases the hit percentage of my missiles. Also, I've flown EA-18Gs in behind Tomahawk strikes to keep the missiles from being shot down. OECM on surface ships is also highly effective in keeping them from getting a good lock to launch ASMs.




cns180784 -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (1/29/2016 11:29:46 PM)

I do most of what you've gone over myself. For example in Canarys Cage i'm planning another air strike on the enemy amphibious group heading for the canaries. Once the last AC from the previous attempted strike landed back at base i knew from then that they'd be ready 6 hours from that point. I knew the targets' course and speed was 12 knots, so after 6 hours they would have traveled another 72nm closer to the canaries and going off their course (234 degrees) i plotted 4 RP's to draw the area where they would be when my AC are ready to launch, and i named each RP as "approximate location of surface group at 20:41 local" 20:41 local being the time that my last AC would be ready to launch. I do this incase i have no other AC with surface search radar that can keep tracking them, which i cant really do as they're quite far from my surface groups which need AC for AEW and ASW protection. In this case the idea would be to create the strike mission to allow radar emissions at the ingress point.

Also to hopefully ensure this strike is a success or at least a partial success, i will devote 7 AC with harpoons to strike the 4 landing vessels which are the targets, and 8 AC with AGM-88s to strike and keep their frigate escorts busy defending themselves (which are emitting all radars), which previously shot down all my harpoons with SAMs. The previous strike only had 4 AC with harpoons. There would have been 7 but i had to divert 3 to strike some other threats that were detected heading for my Grupo Alfa surface group.

But yea i mean another example is when a lot of time has passed since i last had any contact with a skunk or whatever, i'd mark the last known location with RP's, naming them with what the contact was, its course, speed, and time of last contact. Its these things that really add to the enjoyment of the sim.




magi -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/1/2016 6:09:17 PM)

Just noticed this thread Al..... Some thoughtful pointers.... This one is really good... "'Map Cursor Databox' (I usually play with this along the bottom of the screen) and it gives the range from 'Sel' (the selected unit) to the cursor. I was surprised how long it took me to notice this one! "....
I've been playing over a year and never noticed this either... Gezzz...

I travel in the layer often now.... And hunt in and out of it..... If you have a towed array... It's my understanding that if you are above the layer.. It's is deployed bellow and Vice a versa If you are below.... I do not know what the default is when you are in the layer....... I'm into parking on the bottom in situations also....






AndrewJ -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/1/2016 10:42:18 PM)

An array towed in the surface duct acts as though it is in the duct.
An array towed above the layer acts as though it is above the layer.
An array towed within the layer acts as though it is below the layer.
An array towed below the layer acts as though it is below the layer.

So the array only acts at a 'different' level when you are in the layer.




ExNusquam -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/2/2016 10:12:51 PM)

That's incorrect. Game towed-array behavior is described in the graphic from page 132 of the manual.

With depth settings "periscope" and "Shallow" the towed-array/VDS is in the mixed layer above the thermocline. In all other settings the towed-array/VDS is below the thermocline. Surface ships with towed-arrays/VDS always keep them below the thermocline.




AndrewJ -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/2/2016 10:14:14 PM)

Try it and see... [;)]

And don't confuse the VDS with the towed array. They are modelled differently...




ExNusquam -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/3/2016 3:09:46 AM)

K. Tried it and saw that it matched the manual.

In all cases, the target was an Alfa running at flank deep.

Spruance vs. Target on the other side of the layer. (TASS)
3:07:51 AM - Contact: GOBLIN #1 has been type-classified as: SSN (Classification by: DD 963 Spruance [VLS] [Sensor: AN/SQR-19B(V)3 TACTAS] at Estimated 46 nm)
3:07:21 AM - New contact! Designated GOBLIN #1 - Detected by DD 963 Spruance [VLS] [Sensors: AN/SQR-19B(V)3 TACTAS] at 34deg - Estimated 50nm

Target detected at second CZ. Well outside hull sonar range.

FREMM vs. Target on other side of the layer. (VDS)
3:18:49 AM - Contact: GOBLIN #2 has been classified as: PLA-705K Alfa [Lira] - Determined as: Neutral (Classification by: D 650 Aquitaine [FREMM ASW] [Sensor: UMS 4249 CAPTAS Mk4] at Estimated 51 nm)
3:18:24 AM - New contact! Designated GOBLIN #2 - Detected by D 650 Aquitaine [FREMM ASW] [Sensors: UMS 4249 CAPTAS Mk4] at 39deg - Estimated 51nm

Target detected at second CZ. Well outside hull sonar range.

SSN 774 At periscope vs. Target on other side of layer.
7:21:22 AM - Contact: GOBLIN #4 has been type-classified as: SSN (Classification by: SSN 774 Virginia [Flight I] [Sensor: AN/TB-29] at Estimated 66 nm)
7:21:17 AM - New contact! Designated GOBLIN #4 - Detected by SSN 774 Virginia [Flight I] [Sensors: AN/TB-29] at 3deg - Estimated 63nm

Target detected in first CZ. Range was closer to 30 NM. Reduced detection range across the layer.

SSN 774 Just Over Layer vs. Target on other side of layer.
7:45:52 AM - Contact: GOBLIN #5 has been type-classified as: SSN (Classification by: SSN 774 Virginia [Flight I] [Sensor: AN/TB-29] at Estimated 59 nm)
7:45:37 AM - New contact! Designated GOBLIN #5 - Detected by SSN 774 Virginia [Flight I] [Sensors: AN/TB-29] at 27deg - Estimated 63nm

Target detected at third CZ. Range was 90+ miles. Drastically better detection range with array below the thermocline.

I can't think of a submarine with a VDS off-hand to test, but considering everything so far has worked per the manual, I'm not expecting a VDS on a sub to perform differently.




AndrewJ -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/3/2016 11:17:24 PM)

Here's some results from trials I ran last year.

This graph shows the direct path performance of active sonars, where the emitter (which could be a submarine or a VDS) is at different depths (as shown by the yellow star). Within each subsection the range at which the target is detected is plotted against the target's depth. The layer is shown by the dashed blue horizontal lines.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Acitve%20at%20depths_zpshyi9xyob.jpg[/img]


The first thing you'll notice is that performance is broken up into four levels: the surface duct (above 50 m), shallow (below 50 m down to the layer), the layer itself, and the deep sound channel (below the layer). The detection range is the same within each level, regardless of depth of the emitter or target within it.

When the emitter is surfaced or is in the surface duct they get their longest range performance against targets that are also in the duct, and progressively shorter range detections against targets that are deeper. When the sonar drops below the surface duct it loses the surface duct bonus, but its performance against other targets stays the same. Descending into the layer you get terrible direct path performance to other targets that are also in the layer, but better performance against targets above and below the layer. And if you go down below the layer you get excellent performance against other deep targets, but poorer performance against targets above you.

If you overlap the performance profiles you can see how they compare directly.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Active%20overlapped_zpstpznisxe.jpg[/img]

Keep an eye on that light blue line for sonars that are "In Layer". We'll look for it in the next graphs.

Here's an example of performance for a passive sonar.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Passive%20overlapped_zpsyceooxxa.jpg[/img]

Passive sonars have the same relative performance pattern. (As you would expect - sound paths don't care what caused the sound.) The rotten performance of sonars "In Layer" is still the same.

So what do we get when it comes to towed arrays? We get this.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Passive%20towed%20overlapped_zps5pl7925s.jpg[/img]

Notice the same general performance pattern we've seen before, with one exception. The line for the "In Layer" performance now overlaps the line for the "Below Layer" performance. A submarine traveling in the layer has an array that acts as though it is below the layer. In all other cases the performance pattern for a towed array is the same as the performance pattern for a bow or hull sonar operating at the same level.

What about the VDS? They act differently. This graph shows the performance of two different ships (the Restigouche and the Udaloy) which have a VDS and a hull sonar.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/VDS%20overlapped_zps5gcalxx7.jpg[/img]

The hull sonars operate like we've seen already. Good performance in the surface duct, and poorer performance as you get deeper and deeper. However, the VDS are performing as if they were below the layer (excellent performance in the deep sound channel) and as if they were above the layer (same performance as a hull sonar vs shallow or layer targets, but no surface duct bonus.) This abstraction represents the ability of the VDS to be moved above or below the layer as needed.

Note that this is all direct-path deep water sonar performance, and it does not get into the effects of shallow water or the target hugging the bottom (tremendous reduction in active sonar detection range), or the ability to make detections in the narrow CZ rings, when the water is deep enough for them to form.




Rory Noonan -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/4/2016 12:34:54 AM)

Great work AndrewJ, I really enjoyed reading that. Have you got any other data compiled like this?




AndrewJ -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/4/2016 12:56:50 AM)

I'm glad you liked it. This is the most detailed set of trials I did for myself, and while I've got bits and scraps of other stuff here and there, none if it is really compiled in a useful fashion.




Aivlis -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/4/2016 5:04:04 PM)

Thank you for the graphs. As someone who still struggles with submarine warfare, I really appreciate it.




ExNusquam -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/5/2016 2:06:07 AM)

Andrew, those are actually great graphs. I never realized that VDS's worked that way...it's actually a nice way to model them.




magi -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/5/2016 8:51:33 PM)

Thank you Andrew..... That is very useful information....




AlGrant -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/6/2016 10:51:55 AM)

Some useful data & graphs there - thanks




mikkey -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/6/2016 10:35:42 PM)

Excellent report Andrew, thank you!




skorpio667 -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/11/2016 6:08:03 PM)

+1




AlphaSierra -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/8/2017 6:51:35 PM)

My 2 cents

Fighting the war is what I did in the Navy. Harpoon and Command come very easy for me tactically.

In day one of How to fight a Naval war school they will tell you 2 things about jamming, do nothing if you are jammed, and do nothing if you are jammed.

There is no way to "Know" if your offensive ECM is "working" unless your target tips it's hand and changes frequencies on radars etc. Offensive ECM aboard ship would be extremely rare as it can be seen for over 400 nm.

Fair Winds




magi -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (3/17/2017 7:16:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlphaSierra

My 2 cents

Fighting the war is what I did in the Navy. Harpoon and Command come very easy for me tactically.

In day one of How to fight a Naval war school they will tell you 2 things about jamming, do nothing if you are jammed, and do nothing if you are jammed.

There is no way to "Know" if your offensive ECM is "working" unless your target tips it's hand and changes frequencies on radars etc. Offensive ECM aboard ship would be extremely rare as it can be seen for over 400 nm.

Fair Winds

interesting.... i have thought about this.... i only use it if there is an incoming strike or to create a diversion....




morphin -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (10/31/2017 8:31:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

Here's some results from trials I ran last year.

This graph shows the direct path performance of active sonars, where the emitter (which could be a submarine or a VDS) is at different depths (as shown by the yellow star). Within each subsection the range at which the target is detected is plotted against the target's depth. The layer is shown by the dashed blue horizontal lines.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Acitve%20at%20depths_zpshyi9xyob.jpg[/img]


The first thing you'll notice is that performance is broken up into four levels: the surface duct (above 50 m), shallow (below 50 m down to the layer), the layer itself, and the deep sound channel (below the layer). The detection range is the same within each level, regardless of depth of the emitter or target within it.

When the emitter is surfaced or is in the surface duct they get their longest range performance against targets that are also in the duct, and progressively shorter range detections against targets that are deeper. When the sonar drops below the surface duct it loses the surface duct bonus, but its performance against other targets stays the same. Descending into the layer you get terrible direct path performance to other targets that are also in the layer, but better performance against targets above and below the layer. And if you go down below the layer you get excellent performance against other deep targets, but poorer performance against targets above you.

If you overlap the performance profiles you can see how they compare directly.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Active%20overlapped_zpstpznisxe.jpg[/img]

Keep an eye on that light blue line for sonars that are "In Layer". We'll look for it in the next graphs.

Here's an example of performance for a passive sonar.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Passive%20overlapped_zpsyceooxxa.jpg[/img]

Passive sonars have the same relative performance pattern. (As you would expect - sound paths don't care what caused the sound.) The rotten performance of sonars "In Layer" is still the same.

So what do we get when it comes to towed arrays? We get this.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/Passive%20towed%20overlapped_zps5pl7925s.jpg[/img]

Notice the same general performance pattern we've seen before, with one exception. The line for the "In Layer" performance now overlaps the line for the "Below Layer" performance. A submarine traveling in the layer has an array that acts as though it is below the layer. In all other cases the performance pattern for a towed array is the same as the performance pattern for a bow or hull sonar operating at the same level.

What about the VDS? They act differently. This graph shows the performance of two different ships (the Restigouche and the Udaloy) which have a VDS and a hull sonar.

[img]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/VDS%20overlapped_zps5gcalxx7.jpg[/img]

The hull sonars operate like we've seen already. Good performance in the surface duct, and poorer performance as you get deeper and deeper. However, the VDS are performing as if they were below the layer (excellent performance in the deep sound channel) and as if they were above the layer (same performance as a hull sonar vs shallow or layer targets, but no surface duct bonus.) This abstraction represents the ability of the VDS to be moved above or below the layer as needed.

Note that this is all direct-path deep water sonar performance, and it does not get into the effects of shallow water or the target hugging the bottom (tremendous reduction in active sonar detection range), or the ability to make detections in the narrow CZ rings, when the water is deep enough for them to form.


quote:

performance in the surface duct, and po



Andrew, please can you update the pictures?

Thank you
Andy




morphin -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (11/2/2017 8:13:46 AM)


Hi

I'm also playing with submarine tactics.

For modern submarines i suggest the following hints:

1) Until a Speed of about 12 of your sub your detection capabilities are exactly the same. That was also the findings from andrew.
2) If your Sub is in layer untill a Speed of about 10 your Sub will will be detected only marginal earlier (I tested with 2 modern los Angeles class, one is listening on the in -layer and one is approching in the in-layer. The difference is about 1nm if Speed is 5 or 10). So of course that can be important, but the Point is that with quiet submarines your are able to go quiet with much faster Speed (10 instead of 5).
3) So a valid strategy with modern Subs is moving in layer with 10 (max 12) and occasionaly listen just above layer/shallow layer or even better at -49m (periscope) for a few minutes (depent also on the Opponent). It is a pitty that you must do this manually. The new srint/drift is a nice Feature. I hope you can adjust the deep and Maximum Speed in future version...


Andy

Andy





JCM3000 -> RE: CMANO - Gameplay tactics (11/28/2017 9:37:11 AM)

Great thread. As a newcomer this was very informative!

Thanks AlGrant and AndrewJ.




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