RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (Full Version)

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76mm -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 4:22:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.


Unlike lots of others in this thread, Rick seems at least to be reading my posts.

First, I have a basic question which was not answered by my review of the relevant portions of the manual: What happens if you choose the Geneva Convention option? Are all aspects of the game relating to decisions re atrocities TURNED OFF, or are the decisions sanitized so that the German player makes decisions on these topics, but only within the scope of the Geneva Convention?

In my view, the former is a perfectly acceptable option (although see below), and this game would be no better or worse than any other game on this topic. The latter, however, is an unacceptable whitewash, in that these topics are still included, but the Germans are falsely portrayed as lily white, unlike the dastardly Soviets.

So which is it, how does the game work?

Again, if all these features are simply completely turned off, that's perfectly OK, although the name of the option certainly creates a unnecessarily misleading impression. If it doesn't matter for game purposes if the Germans are following the Geneva Convention, why say that they are? Who are you trying to appease? Names/labels do matter.

I'm sorry if other players consider this issue irrelevant--I cannot.

I'm also troubled by the fact that to the extent that Matrix cares about these issues, they only seem to care about how the Germans look...in another Matrix game, Matrix had no problem depicting Soviet war crimes, without any option to turn them off, but I guess that's perfectly OK? I am speaking of the scenario in a game I won't mention in which the German side's mission was to save a little Russian girl from Soviet troops which were trying to kill her (for no apparent reason). I thought it was very strange and didn't pick up the game again (which I didn't care much for anyway).

And I am not looking for an atrocity simulator, as someone (who apparently hadn't read my posts) claimed, or for these issues to be addressed at all, but to the extent that these issues are addressed, they should be addressed accurately.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.



RealChuckB -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 5:08:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

So let me get this straight, DC3 offers the option to include a story line in the game on a sensitive subject that no other game even touches on, ie the other games are all off by design, and instead of recognition they are blasted for it not being the default option? And I thought wargamers were a more intelligent bunch



(Literally) quoted for thruth



KenchiSulla -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 5:35:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.


Unlike lots of others in this thread, Rick seems at least to be reading my posts.

First, I have a basic question which was not answered by my review of the relevant portions of the manual: What happens if you choose the Geneva Convention option? Are all aspects of the game relating to decisions re atrocities TURNED OFF, or are the decisions sanitized so that the German player makes decisions on these topics, but only within the scope of the Geneva Convention?

In my view, the former is a perfectly acceptable option (although see below), and this game would be no better or worse than any other game on this topic. The latter, however, is an unacceptable whitewash, in that these topics are still included, but the Germans are falsely portrayed as lily white, unlike the dastardly Soviets.

So which is it, how does the game work?

Again, if all these features are simply completely turned off, that's perfectly OK, although the name of the option certainly creates a unnecessarily misleading impression. If it doesn't matter for game purposes if the Germans are following the Geneva Convention, why say that they are? Who are you trying to appease? Names/labels do matter.

I'm sorry if other players consider this issue irrelevant--I cannot.

I'm also troubled by the fact that to the extent that Matrix cares about these issues, they only seem to care about how the Germans look...in another Matrix game, Matrix had no problem depicting Soviet war crimes, without any option to turn them off, but I guess that's perfectly OK? I am speaking of the scenario in a game I won't mention in which the German side's mission was to save a little Russian girl from Soviet troops which were trying to kill her (for no apparent reason). I thought it was very strange and didn't pick up the game again (which I didn't care much for anyway).

And I am not looking for an atrocity simulator, as someone (who apparently hadn't read my posts) claimed, or for these issues to be addressed at all, but to the extent that these issues are addressed, they should be addressed accurately.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.


For what I have seen of the game, the Soviets game is different from the German in that the player is not confronted with "decisions" - becoming a member of the party - or not - for example. The tool tip seems to indicate that the option affects both sides but I doubt there is a real game play change on the soviet side.. Developers could chip in.

With regards to your hints towards "German" propaganda (but I think you mean NAZI? Since Germans are a people you know, and Germany is a country today?) - I find that distasteful



76mm -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 6:09:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
With regards to your hints towards "German" propaganda (but I think you mean NAZI? Since Germans are a people you know, and Germany is a country today?) - I find that distasteful


Huh? I'm well aware that Germany is a country, thanks.

And no, I didn't mean Nazi...I meant German. I'm sure that most players abhor Nazism and what it stands for, but there is a certain tendency in many East Front games to portray the Soviets as the bad guys or at least the military incompetents who overwhelmed the Wehrmacht purely through strength of numbers, neither of which is true in my view. Sorry if you find that distasteful.



zakblood -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 6:49:07 AM)

quote:

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/30/2015 5:26:14 AM >


76mm, for me i'd let it drop, as for a wild guess imo the threads getting close to getting closed, as both sides are starting to lets things get personal in some comments and replies, not my call to make either, and only mentioned it to you as you are the thread starter, with also the most replies as such as it's your thread you can ask for it to be closed, maybe before someone else does it for you, it's your call and only friendly advice, i don't have a opinion either way as for me it's a game, one i tested, like all war games sometimes imo mind you we have to take a step back and not think too deep on any given subject, or we make or can make some issues a rallying call to others, as it only inflames and every growing fire that will consume us all, then again i could be wrong and end up a epic 50 page thread where some get banned while others no longer play it, then everyone looses out.

[:(]

and it is December tomorrow, a time for good will to all[;)]



Queeg -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 5:55:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

Hi,

This is a game, not a political statement. The actual conflict was more brutal and uglier than anything you'd read on the news today.

The Dark Side is there to highlight the impact moral & ethical considerations had on Operational Command, no other reason.

As it's a touchy subject with personal implications for some people, it's OFF by default.

It's optional not because of political correctness but rather for consideration of other people's views.

Cheers,
Cameron



Makes sense to me. I'm just happy you included this element to the game. My guess is I'll try both options at some point.



lancer -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (11/30/2015 9:59:29 PM)

Hi 76mm,

To answer your question the relevant decisions are binary.

They are either ON or OFF depending on the Geneva Convention option setting.

Cheers,
Cameron



nukkxx5058 -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 7:35:04 AM)

Hi, just a short question:
I started my first game with Geneva ON but after reading here and there I now think it was a mistake and I should have opted for OFF.
I cannot find the information if it's possible to change this setting once the game has started (and how) or if I will have to restart a new game ?
Thanks



theGoat -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 9:35:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
In this case, however, I think that many people are reading something very unintended into the naming of the option...

Then the developers have to determine what to name the option. Now I happen to think that the developers came up with quite a good name in Geneva Convention. Selected means that the Geneva Convention is being honored, not selected means it isn't.


Unlike lots of others in this thread, Rick seems at least to be reading my posts.

First, I have a basic question which was not answered by my review of the relevant portions of the manual: What happens if you choose the Geneva Convention option? Are all aspects of the game relating to decisions re atrocities TURNED OFF, or are the decisions sanitized so that the German player makes decisions on these topics, but only within the scope of the Geneva Convention?

In my view, the former is a perfectly acceptable option (although see below), and this game would be no better or worse than any other game on this topic. The latter, however, is an unacceptable whitewash, in that these topics are still included, but the Germans are falsely portrayed as lily white, unlike the dastardly Soviets.

So which is it, how does the game work?

Again, if all these features are simply completely turned off, that's perfectly OK, although the name of the option certainly creates a unnecessarily misleading impression. If it doesn't matter for game purposes if the Germans are following the Geneva Convention, why say that they are? Who are you trying to appease? Names/labels do matter.

I'm sorry if other players consider this issue irrelevant--I cannot.

I'm also troubled by the fact that to the extent that Matrix cares about these issues, they only seem to care about how the Germans look...in another Matrix game, Matrix had no problem depicting Soviet war crimes, without any option to turn them off, but I guess that's perfectly OK? I am speaking of the scenario in a game I won't mention in which the German side's mission was to save a little Russian girl from Soviet troops which were trying to kill her (for no apparent reason). I thought it was very strange and didn't pick up the game again (which I didn't care much for anyway).

And I am not looking for an atrocity simulator, as someone (who apparently hadn't read my posts) claimed, or for these issues to be addressed at all, but to the extent that these issues are addressed, they should be addressed accurately.

Finally, don't get me wrong, I don't care much if Matrix wants to crank out games with German propaganda, I just don't want to buy or play them.



Sorry 76mm but this is irrelevant IMO. The option is there, doesn't really matter if its the default and remember that both the Nazi and Soviet sides committed atrocities in the East, not just one side or the other, no matter what propagandists might say.

The simple fact that its there at all is a major departure from most wargames. Would anyone have noticed if the designers hadn't included it as an option at all ? Probably not I think.

In he game the perspectives of the Nazi and Soviet commands are different - the Soviet player doesn't have to make any of these decisions, they are made for the player by the engine. The player gets the option at the start to pretend that both sides rather than neither "played by the rules", I appreciate that you think that the default should be that they didn't and when I play I switch that option (Geneva) "Off" as that's how both sides behaved. Like it or not it's a game, not an exact historical recreation and some design decisions have to be made - at least matrix have confronted the fact that neither side did "fight fair".
Would it be better to have "Off" as default ? Maybe but its not like its difficult to select the option - players who just play on default and don't even bother to look through the options wont be interested in accuracy historically or a range of other things anyway.



76mm -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 1:51:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGoat
Sorry 76mm but this is irrelevant IMO. The option is there, doesn't really matter if its the default and remember that both the Nazi and Soviet sides committed atrocities in the East, not just one side or the other, no matter what propagandists might say.

I've generally been avoiding this forum lately, but noticed this post and wanted to respond. I don't think it is irrelevant.

The fact is that by default the German player is the "good guy" while the Soviets commit atrocities (as noted by numerous reports received by the German player during the game). Previously, the devs described this option as "gentlemens' war" in which both sides observed the Geneva convention, but nonetheless for some reason they considered it necessary and appropriate to include Sov atrocities. Honestly, I find this a disturbing and reprehensible distortion of history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGoat
The simple fact that its there at all is a major departure from most wargames. Would anyone have noticed if the designers hadn't included it as an option at all ? Probably not I think.

If you decide to include atrocities in the game, I think you should at least handle them in a balanced and objective manner, not paint a particular side as lily-white and the other as atrocity-mongers. If you can't do that, I think it is best to leave the issue out of the game altogether.

I note that the game includes an option to "turn on" German atrocities, but not "turn off" Soviet atrocities. This is balanced? Historical? Morally defensible? I think not.

Frankly I don't care much what--or whether--other players think about this topic. This is my last word on the topic, I won't post here any more...





Gunnulf -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 2:53:28 PM)

The default setting is not that the Germans are the good guys. Either which way the setting is toggled then this is a simulation of the surprise attack on a de facto erstwhile ally that leads to the premature death of 30+ million souls, effectively the whole population of Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden terminated or 10% of the USA. At the core this is not a good event, in the middle of a wider bad event and if you get emotional about the morals of that might I suggest another game.

As others have mentioned this game gives an option to expand the decisions that the German commander is faced with, something that other games utterly steer away from. Even hint at discussing it on the Hearts of Iron forum and your post will be deleted. This game is bold to include it as part of the wide range of choices to be made. In fact (from those I have seen/recall) really the German commander doesnt order any crimes, its more whether they are reported or swept under the carpet. But its not for everybody, and for those people of a delicate nature (though how/why/if many of these delicate souls come to be playing a wargame simulating the events above is mysterious) is better that they by default aren't faced with these by default, but rather have to opt-in to the experience. Thats a rational game decisions and I'd be very surprised if it changed.

However what maybe could be changed is the Geneva convention description. I don't think it should be glossed over whether or not the Germans observed the convention, they clearly didn't. Neither side did, and both regimes were brutal. It should maybe be clearer that the toggle is to include war crimes events or not. Its not whether to play in a parallel universe where they didn't happen. I don't believe that was really the spirit or intention of the game design and I think it could be worded better. But overall either which way, it doesn't mean the Germans are the good guys. Many of them had skulls on their uniforms. Never the sign of a benevolent liberating peacekeeping force:

Great clip from Michell & Webb - Are we the baddies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY



RichMunn -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 7:25:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

The default setting is not that the Germans are the good guys. Either which way the setting is toggled then this is a simulation of the surprise attack on a de facto erstwhile ally that leads to the premature death of 30+ million souls, effectively the whole population of Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden terminated or 10% of the USA. At the core this is not a good event, in the middle of a wider bad event and if you get emotional about the morals of that might I suggest another game.

As others have mentioned this game gives an option to expand the decisions that the German commander is faced with, something that other games utterly steer away from. Even hint at discussing it on the Hearts of Iron forum and your post will be deleted. This game is bold to include it as part of the wide range of choices to be made. In fact (from those I have seen/recall) really the German commander doesnt order any crimes, its more whether they are reported or swept under the carpet. But its not for everybody, and for those people of a delicate nature (though how/why/if many of these delicate souls come to be playing a wargame simulating the events above is mysterious) is better that they by default aren't faced with these by default, but rather have to opt-in to the experience. Thats a rational game decisions and I'd be very surprised if it changed.

However what maybe could be changed is the Geneva convention description. I don't think it should be glossed over whether or not the Germans observed the convention, they clearly didn't. Neither side did, and both regimes were brutal. It should maybe be clearer that the toggle is to include war crimes events or not. Its not whether to play in a parallel universe where they didn't happen. I don't believe that was really the spirit or intention of the game design and I think it could be worded better. But overall either which way, it doesn't mean the Germans are the good guys. Many of them had skulls on their uniforms. Never the sign of a benevolent liberating peacekeeping force:

Great clip from Michell & Webb - Are we the baddies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY


That is an excellent post which really sums it up.

Having read this whole thread with increasing head-scratching, I do hope that in the time 76mm saves by not posting on here (which will be considerable) he manages to get out more.

Rich




lparkh -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 9:25:44 PM)

Eloquent post RichMunn, and thanks for the introduction to Michell and Webb. Never ran across them before. Very Pythonesque. Enjoyed the "Kill the Poor" skit too. Will watch more!



WingedIncubus -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/1/2016 10:31:54 PM)

You've got here a wargame where one side actually directly asks the player whether he wants to be passively or actively complicit in Einsatzgruppen actions, and taking off trains and trucks to send countless Jews and Slaves to their death.

The other side has gameplay in which the range of actions including, among other things: forcing countless lives to the meatgrinder when Zhukov shows himself around; sending masses of commanders to their death by a bullet in their rearhead if they are not up to par; forcing commanders to show initiatives with a gun pointed to their head. The player is a paranoid, psychopath of a warleader.

There's no wargame out there that makes both sides as evil and twisted as it can get... and yet remains tasteful and tactful about it.

And truly, that's my own personal opinion, only an idiot or a Neo-Nazi can believe that playing the Germans in a WWII game is playing the good guys, and by this ignore that Operation Barbarossa involved two sides that were each under the sway of brutal, murderous, pitiless ideologies, and one side directly aiming no less than the total subordination and extermination of the other side's whole population and society.



nukkxx5058 -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/2/2016 8:02:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

Hi, just a short question:
I started my first game with Geneva ON but after reading here and there I now think it was a mistake and I should have opted for OFF.
I cannot find the information if it's possible to change this setting once the game has started (and how) or if I will have to restart a new game ?
Thanks



Any answer ? Any txt file I could edit to deactivate the "Geneva convention" option or any other solution apart from restarting a fresh campaign ?

Thanks.



Speedysteve -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/2/2016 8:07:35 AM)

Don't believe it's possible once started



lancer -> RE: Geneva Convention as Default? (1/2/2016 8:59:15 AM)

Hi,

Nope.

Any Game options, once chosen, stay throughout the game.

Cheers,
Cameron



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