ESM - am I doing something wrong? (Full Version)

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DarkFib3r -> ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/3/2015 3:42:23 PM)

I ran a few tests this morning to see how far a passive unit could detect a unit using active radars. However, I am confused by the results and am suspecting I am doing something wrong.

My test locale was in the Indian Ocean, clear weather, at 17:00 local time.

For my first test, I placed a Sovremenney destroyer with radars on. Then I placed an Arleigh Burke with all sensors off. The Burke did not detect the Sovremenney until it was in enemy surface weapon range, which was well within the air radar and surface radar range of the Sov. The Sov detected the Burke right at its surface radar range, as expected.

My second test had an E-3 Sentry in passive sensor mode at 30,000 feet trying to locate the Sov. Again, it was only able to detect the Sovremenney within surface weapon range, well within air and surface radar range.

My assumptions are that the ESM gear on the Burke or Sentry are always on and operational, even if the radars are quiet. I checked the sensors and could not find a way to turn on or off the ESM gear manually. Furthermore, I assume that a unit with ESM gear will be able to detect an emitting target from 1.5 to 2 time its radar range; certainly at .75 - 1 times the range. So if a unit has an air search radar with an effective range of 100nm, my passive E-3 should be able to detect it somewhere in the 150nm-200nm range and will certainly detect it at 75-100nm. It may not be precise, but a bearing to the target should be provided. The ESM gear should be able to detect any target radiating within its effective range. Curvature of the Earth is likely not the issue as the emitting platform was able to detect the targets at max range; the radar waves are hitting the target so the ESM gear should be able to register it.

I read some interesting posts today about the radars and detection ranges, and it seems like the ESM detection should work as one would expect - a radiating target should be detected further out than its own effective max range. But my sandbox test produced significantly different results.

Is there something I am missing here? I can provide more information, if required. Thanks!



Dimitris -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/3/2015 5:04:26 PM)

Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkFib3r
For my first test, I placed a Sovremenney destroyer with radars on. Then I placed an Arleigh Burke with all sensors off. The Burke did not detect the Sovremenney until it was in enemy surface weapon range, which was well within the air radar and surface radar range of the Sov. The Sov detected the Burke right at its surface radar range, as expected.

Keep in mind that the Sovremmenyy has an OTH-SW surface-search radar, which means it can detect ships at ranges far beyond the radar horizon. The Burke has no equivalent sensor, although it too should be able to passively detect the emissions of the Sov's radar.

Providing a save file would help.

quote:


My second test had an E-3 Sentry in passive sensor mode at 30,000 feet trying to locate the Sov. Again, it was only able to detect the Sovremenney within surface weapon range, well within air and surface radar range.

That sounds a bit strange. Again a save file would help here.

Thanks.



DarkFib3r -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/3/2015 10:52:50 PM)

Here is the scenario. Just fly the E-3 north to recreate the problem. The Sov is active and the E-3 doesn't detect the radar until it is about 70nm away, even though the radar of the Sov extends out significantly farther.



cns180784 -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/4/2015 6:00:37 PM)

Arent ESM's limited by the horizon unless they have OTH capability? in a scenario i'm currently playing i have P-3 Orions which have AMES-C ELINT sensors, very recent tech (early 2000's) and has OTH targeting.



DarkFib3r -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/4/2015 6:20:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cns180784
Arent ESM's limited by the horizon...


I am certainly no expert, but I would think that a magnetic wave at a certain frequency hitting the ESM gear, regardless of the horizon, would register as an active radar at a set bearing. But I could be wrong - I don't really know how OTH radars work.

My expectation is that an E-3, with its sensitive ELINT gear, should be able to detect the radar of an emitting platform, at the very least, if it is in range of that emitting platform. So if an emitter has a 100nm range, an E-3 should be able to detect an active radar at least 100nm away, especially at altitude; 200nm is even plausible, depending on signal strength. The attached scenario shows otherwise.



Primarchx -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/5/2015 4:36:52 AM)

Be aware that Command is very faithful in what bandwidths varying ESM sets can detect. It may be that the E-3 is not tuned to the radars the Sovremenny was emitting. I've had many questions along this line in the past and Ragnar usually replies that the gear is working as intended but doesn't cover the band I'm thinking I can detect.



DarkFib3r -> RE: ESM - am I doing something wrong? (12/5/2015 5:03:17 AM)

I ran another test, this time with a 1996 E-3B and 7 different Russian warships from roughly the same era. The E-3B behaved exactly as I would have expected - it passively detected emitting targets at 1.2 to 1.8 their radar range, including a Sovremenny.

I will see what was different with my first test, but I am relieved that this works as one would expect. Thanks for all the help, guys!

EDIT: it seems like the problem was with unit #1287 - EM Sovremenny I [Pr.956] -- Soviet Union [-1991] (Naval Fleet [V-MF]), 1990-1991. All the other Sovs are detectable by unit #3188 - E-3B Sentry at long ranges. But for some reason (probably missing frequencies in the ELINT gear, as suggested by Primarchx) #1287 difficult to detect passively.



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