[FIXED v1.11] Tanker Request (Full Version)

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Mini_Von -> [FIXED v1.11] Tanker Request (12/13/2015 3:06:26 AM)

Devs,

Would it possible to add a Side Doctrine/ROE to "Ignore Bingo Fuel"?

Right now, If I set the side doctrine to "Use Refuel/Unrep" [never] then my aircraft RTB at a 50% fuel load. If I set the side doctrine to "Use Refuel/Unrep" [always] then I seem to have to many aircraft running for the tankers at once "tanker chaos".

I would love to be able to micro manage my Air Refuelling a little better. Like let my aircraft burn 75% fuel before I hit the tanker and then ingress to the target.

Thanks,
Rob



michaelm75au -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:06:49 AM)

If code ignores BINGO, then you are at risk of planes dropping from sky if you forget to check them.



Dysta -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 6:37:41 AM)

I agree with refueling micromanagement as well. Telling when the jet should refuel, either lack of range to RTB, or refuel before direct engage. But it will definitely involved with lots of priority scripting for such of feature.



Aivlis -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 9:23:38 AM)

I would appreciate being able to switch this on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes the code does force an RTB too early, because it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) to check only on current tanker locations. This makes it ignore tankers that are en route and will be available to the Bingo A/C.

I've run into this problem recently when playing Canary Cage, while trying to extend the range of F-18s based in Spain, they would either RTB too soon (set to never refuel) or try to reach tankers that were flying behind them (when allowed to refuel). I realize making the game check for predicted tanker positions is just adding computational load and may be grossly inaccurate in some cases, so maybe a manual toggle could solve these edge-cases?



ppitm -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 2:45:37 PM)

Yes, scenarios with tankers are usually pure hell. Aircraft make unfathomable decisions about when and where to refuel.



mikmykWS -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 3:07:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ppitm

Yes, scenarios with tankers are usually pure hell. Aircraft make unfathomable decisions about when and where to refuel.


They do alright considering the complexity of the ask. We're looking at ways to improve this.

Mike



JPFisher55 -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 4:12:53 PM)

I would simply like to designate which tanker an individual or group of a/c uses to refuel. This would permit micromanaging when necessary, but not make it mandatory to prevent fuel outages.

Maybe being able to override bingo fuel status would help in some situations. You cannot have planes go on missions that require more than one refueling stop because the AI has the plane go bingo if it cannot reach home base on the fuel
that it contains. The AI ignores any tankers between its location and home base for this calculation.



Dimitris -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 4:36:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: ppitm

Yes, scenarios with tankers are usually pure hell. Aircraft make unfathomable decisions about when and where to refuel.


They do alright considering the complexity of the ask. We're looking at ways to improve this.

Mike


Don't spoil the hyperbole party, Mike.



Dimitris -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 4:38:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ppitm
Yes, scenarios with tankers are usually pure hell. Aircraft make unfathomable decisions about when and where to refuel.


So, I assume that you are now going to post your problem cases on the tech support subforum, one thread per issue, describing your issue in detail, and providing a save file for each issue. Correct?



Mini_Von -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 4:42:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

I would simply like to designate which tanker an individual or group of a/c uses to refuel. This would permit micromanaging when necessary, but not make it mandatory to prevent fuel outages.


That is also a good idea.

I don't Expect the refueling AI to be able to adapt to any situation, there are to many variables. IMHO giving the player the tools to manually decide when and where refueling takes place would be the most helpful.



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:01:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mini_Von

Devs,

Would it possible to add a Side Doctrine/ROE to "Ignore Bingo Fuel"?

Right now, If I set the side doctrine to "Use Refuel/Unrep" [never] then my aircraft RTB at a 50% fuel load. If I set the side doctrine to "Use Refuel/Unrep" [always] then I seem to have to many aircraft running for the tankers at once "tanker chaos".

I would love to be able to micro manage my Air Refuelling a little better. Like let my aircraft burn 75% fuel before I hit the tanker and then ingress to the target.

Thanks,
Rob


This has been fixed in Command v1.11. The aircraft will hit the target rather than turning around for a last drink. Same when heading home to base.

Could you post a few savegames that have these issues and we'll confirm that they are indeed gonne.



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aivlis

I would appreciate being able to switch this on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes the code does force an RTB too early, because it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) to check only on current tanker locations. This makes it ignore tankers that are en route and will be available to the Bingo A/C.


The ability to override this setting at mission launch will be included in 1.11. However it is a very risky thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aivlis
I've run into this problem recently when playing Canary Cage, while trying to extend the range of F-18s based in Spain, they would either RTB too soon (set to never refuel) or try to reach tankers that were flying behind them (when allowed to refuel). I realize making the game check for predicted tanker positions is just adding computational load and may be grossly inaccurate in some cases, so maybe a manual toggle could solve these edge-cases?


Can you post a savegame showing this, and we'll check it with the 1.11 code. Thanks!



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:07:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

I would simply like to designate which tanker an individual or group of a/c uses to refuel. This would permit micromanaging when necessary, but not make it mandatory to prevent fuel outages.


Added 1.11. You can manually select the tanker (for one tanking) or limit automatic selection of tankers to those on a specific mission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55
Maybe being able to override bingo fuel status would help in some situations. You cannot have planes go on missions that require more than one refueling stop because the AI has the plane go bingo if it cannot reach home base on the fuel
that it contains. The AI ignores any tankers between its location and home base for this calculation.


I believe this is fixed in 1.11 also. Could you post a savegame for verification?

Thanks!



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:10:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mini_Von

That is also a good idea.

I don't Expect the refueling AI to be able to adapt to any situation, there are to many variables. IMHO giving the player the tools to manually decide when and where refueling takes place would be the most helpful.



Command v1.11 should also allow you to configure missions to only look for tankers assigned to specific missions, within a certain distance (50nm, 100nm, etc). If you have any further thoughts please post up. The more detail the better. Thanks!



Mini_Von -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 5:27:09 PM)



Hi Emsoy,

Here is a game that I was playing last night. I didn't set the aircraft to attack any targets yet. I made a mission to "Form Up" after takeoff and assigned a few aircraft. The aircraft initially headed towards the mission area and then aborted and automatically started heading for the tanker with around a 50% fuel load. I wish we could manually postpone running for the tanker until our aircraft are routed to the area of our choosing (within fuel parameters).

I realize that my game was not optimized such as having the aircraft fly at a high enough altitude to reduce fuel burn. My tanker track may have been a little to far away, but I was prepared to adjust it. I was just casually playing and had that "wouldn't it be helpful if" moment, and thought a little manual control over my aircraft might be helpful.

Thanks



mikmykWS -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 6:34:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

I would simply like to designate which tanker an individual or group of a/c uses to refuel. This would permit micromanaging when necessary, but not make it mandatory to prevent fuel outages.

Maybe being able to override bingo fuel status would help in some situations. You cannot have planes go on missions that require more than one refueling stop because the AI has the plane go bingo if it cannot reach home base on the fuel
that it contains. The AI ignores any tankers between its location and home base for this calculation.


Guys are working on it. Its a tough issue.

Thanks

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 6:49:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: ppitm

Yes, scenarios with tankers are usually pure hell. Aircraft make unfathomable decisions about when and where to refuel.


They do alright considering the complexity of the ask. We're looking at ways to improve this.

Mike


Don't spoil the hyperbole party, Mike.


Tis the season [;)]



JPFisher55 -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 9:27:53 PM)

Sounds like 1.11 will resolve most or all of the refueling/ tanker issues. In the past, I did not post a saved game file in which an aircraft attempting a very long range mission with more than one refueling stop would bingo fuel when it could barely reach its home base on internal fuel. I didn't consider it a bug to report.

After 1.11 is released, I'll post saved games with any noticeable refueling issues. Thanks to the developers for the attention to this aspect of a great game.



mikmykWS -> RE: Tanker Request (12/13/2015 10:34:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

Sounds like 1.11 will resolve most or all of the refueling/ tanker issues. In the past, I did not post a saved game file in which an aircraft attempting a very long range mission with more than one refueling stop would bingo fuel when it could barely reach its home base on internal fuel. I didn't consider it a bug to report.

After 1.11 is released, I'll post saved games with any noticeable refueling issues. Thanks to the developers for the attention to this aspect of a great game.


Appreciate the help. Thanks!

Mike



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 4:56:00 AM)

Thanks guys, we'll take a look at the attached savefile [8D]



ExNusquam -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 4:56:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55
Sounds like 1.11 will resolve most or all of the refueling/ tanker issues. In the past, I did not post a saved game file in which an aircraft attempting a very long range mission with more than one refueling stop would bingo fuel when it could barely reach its home base on internal fuel. I didn't consider it a bug to report.

This requires a bit more micro-management than most would care to do- but the key to doing those kinds of missions is divert fields. These feature heavily in real-world flight planning. A diplomatic incident is much preferred to losing an airframe because it was to turbulent to refuel or the equipment broke.

By moving the home base forward, I've managed to get B-2's all the way from Whiteman to CENTCOM with no issues.



Dimitris -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 5:08:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

This requires a bit more micro-management than most would care to do- but the key to doing those kinds of missions is divert fields. These feature heavily in real-world flight planning. A diplomatic incident is much preferred to losing an airframe because it was to turbulent to refuel or the equipment broke.



This.

Considering how many real-world missions end with "...and the third element diverted to airstrip xyz because it was low on fuel", it's amazing how little attention most scen designers put on adding diversion bases, friendly or less so. RL planners factor them for a reason. By not having them, one is essentially throwing a much harder (than RL) problem to the refuelling AI.



magi -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 7:13:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

This requires a bit more micro-management than most would care to do- but the key to doing those kinds of missions is divert fields. These feature heavily in real-world flight planning. A diplomatic incident is much preferred to losing an airframe because it was to turbulent to refuel or the equipment broke.



This.

Considering how many real-world missions end with "...and the third element diverted to airstrip xyz because it was low on fuel", it's amazing how little attention most scen designers put on adding diversion bases, friendly or less so. RL planners factor them for a reason. By not having them, one is essentially throwing a much harder (than RL) problem to the refuelling AI.


That's a good point......



FlyingBear -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 1:41:50 PM)

How about a behavior, controlled by a setting, to have aircraft automatically divert to any available runway if refueling is looking sketchy and they are below bingo for their home base?



Tailhook -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 3:28:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FlyingBear

How about a behavior, controlled by a setting, to have aircraft automatically divert to any available runway if refueling is looking sketchy and they are below bingo for their home base?



A good idea, but the problem persists that scenario designers don't include possible divert fields much of the time.



ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 7:54:43 PM)

Hehe okay this one's tricky. It works a lot better in v1.11 than in v1.09 but we don't want aircraft to crash out of fuel so they are very careful about stepping beyond their max unrefuelled range.

So when they are down to ca 70% of mission fuel they start looking for suitable tankers as an alternative to returning to base. The reason we start earlier than 50% of mission fuel because the last leg of the target ingress route may use Military throttle and lower altitudes which means fuel will be burned faster. Ditto for CAP which may use Afterburner to chase down a target. So better start looking for tankers sooner rather than later.

In any case, all strikers and fighers in the scenario hooked up with the tanker over the holding area and were refuelled. No manual control was necessary.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mini_Von

Hi Emsoy,

Here is a game that I was playing last night. I didn't set the aircraft to attack any targets yet. I made a mission to "Form Up" after takeoff and assigned a few aircraft. The aircraft initially headed towards the mission area and then aborted and automatically started heading for the tanker with around a 50% fuel load. I wish we could manually postpone running for the tanker until our aircraft are routed to the area of our choosing (within fuel parameters).

I realize that my game was not optimized such as having the aircraft fly at a high enough altitude to reduce fuel burn. My tanker track may have been a little to far away, but I was prepared to adjust it. I was just casually playing and had that "wouldn't it be helpful if" moment, and thought a little manual control over my aircraft might be helpful.

Thanks




ComDev -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 8:02:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

I would simply like to designate which tanker an individual or group of a/c uses to refuel. This would permit micromanaging when necessary, but not make it mandatory to prevent fuel outages.


Added in v1.11 [8D]

quote:

Maybe being able to override bingo fuel status would help in some situations.


The Unassign functionality has been adjusted and you can use that to take control. The super-careful AI has been given a powerful override and will not 'force' the aircraft to RTB on Bingo. Just be careful to not forget that you have actually overridden the Bingo functionality hehe. Getting aircraft home safely then becomes a manual task [8D]

quote:

You cannot have planes go on missions that require more than one refueling stop because the AI has the plane go bingo if it cannot reach home base on the fuel
that it contains. The AI ignores any tankers between its location and home base for this calculation.


Im pretty sure this has been fixed in v1.11 also. Would be great if you could post a savegame from 1.09 where tankers don't perform as expected, and we'll test it in 1.11.

Thanks!



Mini_Von -> RE: Tanker Request (12/14/2015 10:27:13 PM)

Emsoy,

Thanks for looking into the refueling. I'm sure the adjustments you made will be very helpful![:)]



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