Patch out for those who are wavering (Full Version)

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altipueri -> Patch out for those who are wavering (12/15/2015 9:03:43 PM)

Patch for 1.01 is out to cover some of the issues people may have read about, especially on the AGEOD website.

It's clearly patch season for Napoleonic fans as there was 3.04 for Campaigns On The Danube only a few days ago and with the sale still on that is well worth a few dollars to have a different take on Napoleonic wargames.


All these games about killing are so good - especially at reduced prices in the season of good will.




Er, joke in case of flash - I'm offended outrage.



Max 86 -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/15/2015 9:07:14 PM)

[:D]

Praise the Lord and pass the bullets! [:D]



Dorb -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/15/2015 11:13:49 PM)

Bought it yesterday. I usually try and wait for the first patch to make my decision final.



pacwar -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 12:30:07 AM)

"It's clearly patch season for Napoleonic fans as there was 3.04 for Campaigns On The Danube only a few days ago and with the sale still on that is well worth a few dollars to have a different take on Napoleonic wargames."

A patch for Campaigns on the Danube???? I gave up on that game years ago...how do I get to the patch?

[&:]



Queeg -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 2:00:08 AM)

The patch doesn't seem to patch much.

Battle casualties are still far too high (no real change that I can see).

The Pressburg peace event still doesn't work.

And the graphics fixes won't install at all unless you do it yourself manually. (The patch installs a second "graphics" folder inside the existing graphics folder instead of installing the new content into the existing graphics folder.)

Not a great start....



altipueri -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 7:34:16 AM)

Ugh! a bit more time with COTD then until more people are happy with WON.

@pacwar COTD 3.04 patch is downloadable from the forum.



VPaulus -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 8:45:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

And the graphics fixes won't install at all unless you do it yourself manually. (The patch installs a second "graphics" folder inside the existing graphics folder instead of installing the new content into the existing graphics folder.)

Not a great start....

We are going to release a hotfix for this today.
We apologize for mall the inconvenience.



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 9:56:45 AM)

No need to waver the game has scope subject matter and almost everything you ever wanted from a Napoleonic Wargame. Any game of such magnitude is going to have teething problems and things that need to be fine tuned this is no exception. Yet being that Ageod have always supported all their games post release it's a non issue. This game engine has really stood the test of time and with WON that engine has reached the destination I think it was modelled for. Ageod can do no more than put it out there for us to enjoy I'm glad they did!



Marcus_Antonius -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 12:21:45 PM)

Never judge a game by its release. Judge it by how that release gets patched up (eventually).

Whether you buy now or wait to see; the scope of this game is hard core porn for the Napoleonic gamer. Give them credit for that at least.




tevans6220 -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 6:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: typhoon

No need to waver the game has scope subject matter and almost everything you ever wanted from a Napoleonic Wargame. Any game of such magnitude is going to have teething problems and things that need to be fine tuned this is no exception. Yet being that Ageod have always supported all their games post release it's a non issue. This game engine has really stood the test of time and with WON that engine has reached the destination I think it was modelled for. Ageod can do no more than put it out there for us to enjoy I'm glad they did!

I love the Phils and the guys that work with them. I also love the games that they make. But I think something needs to be said about the QA process. Releasing games on historical dates may be a nice touch but just once I'd like to buy one of their games and have just minor problems to deal with. Every game released has bugs but with Ageod games you aren't really sure if you can actually play a game all the way through without having to wait for multiple patches. This has been going on since Birth of America. Don't get me wrong, I think Ageod's support is 1000%. It's just that when I buy one of their games, I have them all BTW, I never know if it's actually safe to start playing or if I should wait for half a dozen patches. I really want to play WON but I don't want my gameplay interrupted or spoiled by having to wait for a patch to fix things events that don't fire or things that don't work. It's really become a guessing game when you buy an Ageod product. Like I said, they provide excellent support but they almost have to because I can't remember one game they released that didn't have some type of major problem that required patching before you could actually play. Is WON safe to start playing after the first patch or does it require several more patches?



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/16/2015 8:16:12 PM)

The Ageod forums perhaps cover better what the patch does and what it does not do. going to quote one of the Phils from a post he posted over there
"A game is a "living creature" in some ways, that has infancy and then slowly grows up to teenage and adult....a time during which we provide as much care as we can". Whilst not quite owning all of the Ageod games I own many and think that WON represents the pinnacle of the game engine they have been using sure there are a few problems to grow through but grow the game will.



tevans6220 -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 12:32:23 AM)

I don't see games that way. I see games as an entertainment venue. I get great value for the money I spend but the problem is that due to poor testing or poor QA, I sometimes have to wait several weeks or months after my original purchase to start getting some entertainment. We already know that in WON some of the game's beginning events don't work. What about events further into the game? I don't want to be a paying tester, finding bugs to be patched. That's not my job. I'm not asking for the impossible. A 100% bug free game is an impossibility. But it didn't take long for people to find out the events weren't working or the casualty rates my be too high. If we can find it then whey wasn't it found in testing? It had to be fairly obvious. Releasing games on historical dates may be a nice gimmick but it's not worth it if it means the game isn't going to work right upon release. This isn't the first Ageod game where something like this has happened with events, casualty rates or other things. It's happened with practically every one of their releases and it's getting kind of old. I honestly don't know if it's safe to start a serious game after one patch or not. My experience tells me it's probably going to need another half dozen patches. Just the other day playing Civil War II I got an event in the log without a proper name. Instead it was evt nam something something. Civil War II is on it's 6th patch.



Queeg -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 12:39:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

I love the Phils and the guys that work with them. I also love the games that they make. But I think something needs to be said about the QA process. Releasing games on historical dates may be a nice touch but just once I'd like to buy one of their games and have just minor problems to deal with. Every game released has bugs but with Ageod games you aren't really sure if you can actually play a game all the way through without having to wait for multiple patches. This has been going on since Birth of America. Don't get me wrong, I think Ageod's support is 1000%. It's just that when I buy one of their games, I have them all BTW, I never know if it's actually safe to start playing or if I should wait for half a dozen patches. I really want to play WON but I don't want my gameplay interrupted or spoiled by having to wait for a patch to fix things events that don't fire or things that don't work. It's really become a guessing game when you buy an Ageod product. Like I said, they provide excellent support but they almost have to because I can't remember one game they released that didn't have some type of major problem that required patching before you could actually play. Is WON safe to start playing after the first patch or does it require several more patches?


You've perfectly captured my own thoughts about AGEOD and their games. I buy their games to support them, and I appreciate their willingness to stick by their games, but I increasingly find that I like the theory of them more than the reality.

Their approach to QC is consistently amateurish. The patch today, for example, doesn't even install the graphics fixes into the correct folder! A pre-teen modder can get that stuff right. And time and time again, they fix one thing only to break something else - and often the two things are so unrelated that you're left scratching your head as to how they could even break the thing they broke while trying to fix the thing they they fixed.

I know they are a small company. But they are charging big boy prices. And someday they need to approach this as more than a paid hobby.



pzgndr -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 12:48:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: typhoon
the game has ... and almost everything you ever wanted from a Napoleonic Wargame


I still prefer AH's War and Peace and ADG's Empires in Arms for Napoleonic grand strategy.



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 8:15:52 AM)

I just wrote a long rambling post in answer then deleted as it was just that long and rambling. WIP and EIA were both great board games though the latter ran into problems of it's own when bought onto the computer I've still not played it properly on that format. Now back to WON the game available to buy today is ready and should speak for itself. Detail events game play done with Ageods unique style and craft make it a thing of beauty unparalleled. The interface does more than most and the tool tips give a wealth of info for the player. The map lavish and expansive the Napoleonic Characters are there Kutuzov remains drunk for much of 1805 a major liability for the Russians yes this detail is included so much more could be said in defence of this great game but it should not need defending as I said the work speaks for itself.I think it is the nature of our hobby to be like this many peoples glasses are always half empty whilst some remain half full. Mine is practically brimming over and as another unselfish plug for this game I will mention the price. For a game on this subject matter this length with this amount of detail one could expect to pay £50 English pounds this is just over half that and worth every penny. Sorry the post remain long and rambling and somewhat off topic



VPaulus -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 9:45:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

The patch today, for example, doesn't even install the graphics fixes into the correct folder! A pre-teen modder can get that stuff right.

To be fair, this problem wasn't on the AGEOD developers side, but on our Slitherine/Matrix production line.



chemkid -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 10:34:39 AM)

.



Tamas -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 11:15:30 AM)

And now 1.011 out to correct the installer mistakes we made with 1.01, sorry about those! The actual content in terms of fixes and improvements is the same as 1.01



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 11:32:24 AM)

My rambling can get quite annoying as my other half is always informing me. So decided not to ramble and post a screen shot. Though some rambling attached as well. This is your playground Europe January 1805. Created for your pleasure tenderly drawn and the detail lovingly researched you can choose to play at the moment from 7 nations France,Austria,Prussia,Spain,Russia,Turkey,England. Each with it's own agenda to fufil not some fictional notion to conquer the World but realistic ambitions for the countries of that time. All I should really say is enter the playground and go and play as the exploration of the game will do the rest. Forgot to mention the intro music wish there was a way to embed that into a post that I knew of it's a lovely piece really sets the mood. Now once again off topic and rambling so just go and play.

[image]local://upfiles/6110/D30C92CAC30541299D2DCFDBDC6B6BA0.jpg[/image]



TJD -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 12:52:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg


I buy their games to support them, and I appreciate their willingness to stick by their games, but I increasingly find that I like the theory of them more than the reality.

Their approach to QC is consistently amateurish. ... And someday they need to approach this as more than a paid hobby.


I couldn't agree more. Well said.




typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 1:46:05 PM)

Without getting into the negative mindset of knocking other games it is very difficult to defend against those that wish to find fault in the QC of Ageods titles though it is no better or no worst than any other companies they all seem to follow the same basic process. It is noble that people buy the games to support them and of course any wargammer worth his salt would be drawn to the theories behind the games. That said there is nothing in WON that is broken nothing that prevents people who enjoy the theory and offer there support from buying and greatly enjoying this game as it now is. We all need to play it a whole lot more and watch as the support continues the game evolves is that not what this is all about after all we can spend our money and pick fault or spend our money then play and enjoy the product for what it is.



tevans6220 -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 5:39:28 PM)

I don't think anybody is going out of their way to find fault. What I said about their QA is actually true. The fouled up events and high casualty rates should have been obvious within the first 15 turns of the game and found in testing. The fact that it wasn't or that it wasn't fixed before release leads to the conclusion that they have poor QA. I'm not sure how you can say that WON has nothing broken. The things I found are right in the beginning of the game. As long as the game is, I doubt very seriously if anyone has finished a complete campaign yet. So nobody really knows what other problems there will be with events or other things further into the game. This isn't anything new either. This has happened with practically every Ageod release. So there's got to be a failure or flaw in their QA process.



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 6:14:44 PM)

I do not think that either of us will alter their position on this though we might try very hard :-). For me fine tuning combat figures and ensuring all events trigger is something about adjusting algorithms and the like it should not detract from the game nor should it be that because such tuning is needed the QC failed. Those algorithms or lines of code be complicated beasts at a guess difficult and unwieldy. Wargammers are by nature a difficult bunch (ourselves included) and each forum board has arguments about combat figures losses missing types of tank the speed of aircraft missiles and the like all not found in testing. I'm glad they got the game out to us in time for Christmas and am trying on these forums to move the talk away from broken or poor anything.I look to the positive in WON and see that the game shines as it is and will only shine brighter as time and it's growth through good support continues.



TJD -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/17/2015 11:33:08 PM)

I think these games are inherently difficult to beta-test because most testers can't parse the scripting language, and many of AGEOD's errors are found there. Generally, beta testers just kick the tires and have a look-around and judge whether things seem to be more or less WAD. And that's fine, as far as it goes. Which is not nearly far enough for games as complex as these. I don't know how to fix that other than hire a demon like vicberg to comb through it all. Things seem to have come to a head with WON, though. There's a lot of irritation now and I don't think fanboy sentiments can answer it.



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/18/2015 6:50:15 AM)

Any dialogue about this game is good dialogue if it takes becoming a fanboy to get people to talk about it and play it then fanboy it is. If people are willing to play the game they can make their own judgements. The negative will get fixed and the good is already there for everybody to see who is not put off by the negative feedback.



loki100 -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/18/2015 7:12:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TJD

I think these games are inherently difficult to beta-test because most testers can't parse the scripting language, and many of AGEOD's errors are found there. Generally, beta testers just kick the tires and have a look-around and judge whether things seem to be more or less WAD. And that's fine, as far as it goes. Which is not nearly far enough for games as complex as these. I don't know how to fix that other than hire a demon like vicberg to comb through it all. Things seem to have come to a head with WON, though. There's a lot of irritation now and I don't think fanboy sentiments can answer it.


thats a quite spectacular set of assumptions and opinions being passed off as knowledge ... [;)]



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/19/2015 8:10:20 AM)

There is now a 1.02 Public Beta patch available from the Ageod site. It is a public beta and not yet an official patch so guess that's why the news never made it to the Matrix site. Although it would have been good to see it mentioned in the members area.



pzgndr -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/19/2015 1:55:51 PM)

I grabbed the 1.02 beta. Thanks for the heads up.

BUT, why no announcements here?? If AEGOD and Slitherine are going to sell Matrix products, they need to support the Matrix forums. It's Matrix Games. Hello?



Franciscus -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/19/2015 2:28:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I grabbed the 1.02 beta. Thanks for the heads up.

BUT, why no announcements here?? If AEGOD and Slitherine are going to sell Matrix products, they need to support the Matrix forums. It's Matrix Games. Hello?


Hi

The argument IMHO is reversed: Matrix/Slitherine is selling Ageod products, they need to support Ageod.

Regards



typhoon -> RE: Patch out for those who are wavering (12/19/2015 2:31:34 PM)

I'm afraid I feel that it is all one and the same and all three need to support each other bit like the union days or something like that united we stand divided we fall now I wonder where truly that saying comes from



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