China ZOC not effective (Full Version)

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Mike Dubost -> China ZOC not effective (12/28/2015 12:08:31 AM)

Well, this is a new one on me.

I'm using Windows 8.1 to run a solitaire game of Global War under WiF 2.1.0.3.

I find that there is no zone of control in China (I can move units freely past corps/army sized units).
Given that I know the rules, I can stop moving when I would be forced to, so this is not game breaking,
but someone who does not know the rules might not do this.

I have attached a save game.

EDIT: I have just checked on the situation in France and find ZOC is working there. Strange that it would be only
partly effective.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/28/2015 12:39:39 AM)

Using your saved game all the enemy ZOC worked correctly in stopping movement by Axis and Allied units in China.

Perhaps there was a route around the ZOC that you didn't notice. Or perhaps it was a divisional unit that doesn't exert a ZOC, or perhaps a lake hexside or Alpine hexside was blocking the ZOC. Lastly, remember that a unit could leave one enemy ZOC, move into a hex free of enemy ZOC, and then enter a hex in an enemy ZOC. It is just moving from one EZOC to another EZOC that is prohibited (even that has an exception for overruns).

If you can provide a precise example of the ability to move directly from one enemy ZOC to another, that would help.



Mike Dubost -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/29/2015 1:52:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Using your saved game all the enemy ZOC worked correctly in stopping movement by Axis and Allied units in China.

Perhaps there was a route around the ZOC that you didn't notice. Or perhaps it was a divisional unit that doesn't exert a ZOC, or perhaps a lake hexside or Alpine hexside was blocking the ZOC. Lastly, remember that a unit could leave one enemy ZOC, move into a hex free of enemy ZOC, and then enter a hex in an enemy ZOC. It is just moving from one EZOC to another EZOC that is prohibited (even that has an exception for overruns).

If you can provide a precise example of the ability to move directly from one enemy ZOC to another, that would help.



As an example, I just ran it forward through combat, passed all the Allies, got a 5 on the weather roll, and moved the Japanese cav near
Chengchow through the clear hex between the Nationalist in Chengchow and the Communist in the mountains nearby. Clear hex, no Apline
hexsides, no lakes, both Chinese Corp/Army size. The exact sequence is not relevant, given that I see it consistently, but just for the
sake of completeness, I've given it.

Anyone else see something similar under Win 8.1? Maybe the sequence of upgrades to WiF was odd, since I got too busy to do much with it for
several months (Oscar Wilde was right, work is the curse of the drinking classes!).

Thanks.

EDIT: Due to the weather (storm), there was only 1 path that a 4 movement unit could take to get to the far side of the city.



paulderynck -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/29/2015 2:46:33 AM)

I just tried the sequence you describe with your saved game. When you say "far side of the city", I hope you don't mean you think the CAV cannot move one hex due west? It can certainly do that, and in my test it could move no further.

In WiF, a unit can always move directly from one enemy ZoC to another and then it must cease movement unless it is able to make an overrun.

Many other games use a "locking" ZoC rule that prevents such a maneuver, but WiF is not one of them. Unless making an overrun, you must stop moving in the first enemy ZoC'd hex you enter, but you are allowed to leave the one you started in and move directly to another.

I hope this is not taken by you as condescending as that is not my objective, but given that the same file behaved per the rules on my test, this is the only explanation that fits, other than your install being corrupted somehow.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/29/2015 6:29:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I just tried the sequence you describe with your saved game. When you say "far side of the city", I hope you don't mean you think the CAV cannot move one hex due west? It can certainly do that, and in my test it could move no further.

In WiF, a unit can always move directly from one enemy ZoC to another and then it must cease movement unless it is able to make an overrun.

Many other games use a "locking" ZoC rule that prevents such a maneuver, but WiF is not one of them. Unless making an overrun, you must stop moving in the first enemy ZoC'd hex you enter, but you are allowed to leave the one you started in and move directly to another.

I hope this is not taken by you as condescending as that is not my objective, but given that the same file behaved per the rules on my test, this is the only explanation that fits, other than your install being corrupted somehow.



My post was probably misleading. Sorry about that.[:(]

WIF uses 'sticky' zones of control instead of 'locking' ZOCs. Locking means you cannot leave an enemy ZOC. Sticky means you can leave but must stop upon entering; and in the case of WIF, you can move directly from one enemy ZOC to another enemy ZOC - but only when moving 1 hex (overruns may let you move more hexes).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/29/2015 6:48:26 PM)

Just as a followup on my last post, concerning the tactics in Russia given the rules for enemy ZOCs affecting movement:

A standard defense in Russia is to place the USSR units so they occupy every other hex. As long as there are no enemy (i.e., Axis) units adjacent to the line, and provided none of the USSR hexes can be overrun, the Axis cannot penetrate the line. So the Axis moves up next to the USSR units. During the Allied impulse, the USSR moves all their units back one hex, recreating the same situation as before. The advantage of this is that the USSR can double stack each hex, rather than have a contiguous line of weaker hexes.

Of course the USSR has to make sure no Axis unit is adjacent to their units, or else the Axis can move into the empty hex between the USSR units and gain an additional hexside for attacking.

The 'grain' of the hex grid can either help of hinder the attacker. In the case of WIF Russia, the grain helps the attacker because the defender has to either have their line offer 3 hexsides to the attacker (alternating 1 hexside and 3 hexsides) or else slope their defensive line diagonally to the line of attack (due east or due west). Sloping the line means that you have to defend more hexes.

For the attacker, tactics require ground striking the defending hexes so some units can no longer retreat. Usually that means the disorganized units get left behind as sacrificial lambs (their own fault for becoming disorganized[:-]).

The USSR has a lot of room for retreating across the steppes, so this tactic works well for the USSR. It is less helpful for the Axis in the later years when the USSR is attacking westward. The Axis only has as much room for retreating as they have forced the USSR back in the earlier years of the war.

---

I apologize to those readers who know all this already. And for causing this thread to drift away from Tech Support and more towards the WIF School sub-forum.



paulderynck -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/29/2015 8:23:55 PM)

Sticky ZoCs mean an attacker can use the "ooze" tactic unless the defender drops back. The "ooze" tactic is to advance up to the enemy but don't attack. If the enemy doesn't retreat or fill in the hexes to either side of his strongpoint, the attacker moves one hex forward wherever possible and fills in with more units behind in the hexes he left.

A double move caused by the attacker moving last in one turn and first in the next turn can create the ooze even when the defender is trying to drop back to prevent it, and this can be disastrous depending on the defender's supply situation.



Mike Dubost -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/30/2015 2:49:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I just tried the sequence you describe with your saved game. When you say "far side of the city", I hope you don't mean you think the CAV cannot move one hex due west? It can certainly do that, and in my test it could move no further.

In WiF, a unit can always move directly from one enemy ZoC to another and then it must cease movement unless it is able to make an overrun.

Many other games use a "locking" ZoC rule that prevents such a maneuver, but WiF is not one of them. Unless making an overrun, you must stop moving in the first enemy ZoC'd hex you enter, but you are allowed to leave the one you started in and move directly to another.

I hope this is not taken by you as condescending as that is not my objective, but given that the same file behaved per the rules on my test, this is the only explanation that fits, other than your install being corrupted somehow.




Don't worry, I did not take it as condescending. Given the complexity of the rules, I would not be too surprised to find myself misunderstanding.
However, I was able to stack the CAV with the MOT a hex beyond the one it should have had to stop in. Not sure why it only works on my computer.
Maybe it is a corrupted install.

Given this is a solitaire game, I can probably rely on my opponent to be a good sport and not take undue advantage. [:)] Therefore, as Lord Vetenari
said in a discworld novel "I shall ignore it pro tem."

In the event I change my mind, if I uninstall and reinstall, I think I only need the original install file and the most recent update, correct?



paulderynck -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/30/2015 4:35:48 AM)

You need the original and then run the updater. I think the original plus just a current hot patch (if there is one) will cause problems.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/30/2015 4:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Using your saved game all the enemy ZOC worked correctly in stopping movement by Axis and Allied units in China.

Perhaps there was a route around the ZOC that you didn't notice. Or perhaps it was a divisional unit that doesn't exert a ZOC, or perhaps a lake hexside or Alpine hexside was blocking the ZOC. Lastly, remember that a unit could leave one enemy ZOC, move into a hex free of enemy ZOC, and then enter a hex in an enemy ZOC. It is just moving from one EZOC to another EZOC that is prohibited (even that has an exception for overruns).

If you can provide a precise example of the ability to move directly from one enemy ZOC to another, that would help.



As an example, I just ran it forward through combat, passed all the Allies, got a 5 on the weather roll, and moved the Japanese cav near
Chengchow through the clear hex between the Nationalist in Chengchow and the Communist in the mountains nearby. Clear hex, no Apline
hexsides, no lakes, both Chinese Corp/Army size. The exact sequence is not relevant, given that I see it consistently, but just for the
sake of completeness, I've given it.

Anyone else see something similar under Win 8.1? Maybe the sequence of upgrades to WiF was odd, since I got too busy to do much with it for
several months (Oscar Wilde was right, work is the curse of the drinking classes!).

Thanks.

EDIT: Due to the weather (storm), there was only 1 path that a 4 movement unit could take to get to the far side of the city.

Here is the screenshot to go with the move you describe. The Japanese Cavalry can legally 'ooze' through the Chinese line, moving one hex west.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/3A952129BFC14501A55A3392B1637F99.jpg[/image]



paulderynck -> RE: China ZOC not effective (12/30/2015 6:14:30 PM)

Yes - but Mike observed it being able to get to where 5-5 Mot Corps is, all in one move - as he stated in a later post.

It would seem his computer's positronic brain is on the fritz.



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