[Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (Full Version)

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Namudin -> [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/28/2015 4:57:13 PM)

Slow speed AI/normal diff game. Historical is OFF.

Support Hitler and he says take Leningrad, so I do. Come October, Hitler says, actually, I want Rostov with Moscow surrounded and about to fall, which it does 2nd week Oct.

According to Intel the Russians have as of 12th October:

AGN: 12 Divs and 14 unknown. Recon 6 HQ, 3 divs 0
AGC 1 HQ, 6 Divs, 11 unknown. Recon 5 HQ, 5 Divs
AGS 0 HQ 77 Div, 25 unknown Recon 13 HQ 17 Divs

Overall 18 HQ and 353 Divs destroyed, having lost 3 units.

South still has some resistance, but 2/3rds of Russia is pretty empty. And it looks like I'll still get a draw if Rostov holds out, which it may well do with winter coming and mud beforehand.

I would hazard a guess, even Hitler was not crazy enough not to recognise success and be churlish enough to deny a General's victory. I would suggest, there needs to be a wider reflection of strategic achievement, unless the intent is the German player only wins if Hitler is a happy bunny and ignoring the actual strategic situation. I'd also think the chance of Hitler changing his mind once an agreed starting goal is taken should be much reduced, if not impossible.

The flip side also applies, as has been mentioned elsewhere. It's no good holding the start of game objective for a notional win if the Russians are not pushed back far enough in other regions, and vice versa.

TLDR; the strategic situation does not contribute sufficiently to victory/draw/loss.



lancer -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/28/2015 9:42:28 PM)

Hi Namudin,

You've opted to 'Support Hitler' as your chosen strategy.

He was a man who changed his mind a lot and, given a whiff of success, would happily double down on his bets. When it looked (around September) that the Red Army was beaten and the campaign would soon be won Hitler was resetting the victory goal posts to a north south line well beyond Moscow.

Hitler's changeable views are the key factor here. If you wanted a more sensible strategic approach I'd recommend choosing the 'Moscow or Bust' or 'Military Independence' strategies instead.

Cheers,
Cameron



Namudin -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/28/2015 11:49:38 PM)

True enough. Whimsy is a tough option to choose. By luck (?), come November he's changed his mind again as he rather fancies a winter palace in Moscow now.



battlevonwar -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/29/2015 12:34:55 AM)

It's a lot harder to try to take one goal! The resources needed via PPs (that means Hitler's support) is vital to keep the wheels greased. You don't have to go off what the game says is a victory. Honestly I would say a victory has less to do with the capture of key cities and more so with the complete destruction of the Red Army and it's infrastructure. I think if you managed the kind of kill ratio you're talking about in Leadership and Divisions I would just quit and call that a cakewalk.

All my first games I played Moscow or bust as I believe that means more and it was a very tough situation...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Namudin

True enough. Whimsy is a tough option to choose. By luck (?), come November he's changed his mind again as he rather fancies a winter palace in Moscow now.




WingedIncubus -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/30/2015 1:11:35 AM)

Speaking of German objectives, starting objectives seem always to be Leningrad first and destroying HQs second when selecting 'Support Hitler' pre-game. Aren't Directive 21's list of objectives supposed to be random? Is it heavily weighted in favour of Leningrad being first?

Might be confirmation bias or a string of 'bad' luck with a small sample... but I would see Hitler deciding the first objective is, say Rostov or destroying as many HQs as possible in any theater. Furthermore, if Leningrad is always the first choice it becomes easier for the Soviet player to prioritize the North and Center.



lancer -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/30/2015 8:34:19 AM)

Hi Drakken,

Hitler's objectives are randomised but within roughly historical parameters. There's scope for non-historical outcomes but they are less likely than a more traditional approach.

It's not on rails, however, and you can be surprised.

Cheers,
Cameron



Franciscus -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/30/2015 8:37:11 AM)

BTW, it's now mid-september on my game (1.02) and no Hitler conference has happened yet, so the objectives (also first Leningrad...) haven't changed. WAD ?

Regards



lancer -> RE: [Suggestion] Victory conditions/Hitler interference (12/30/2015 8:45:58 AM)

Hi Franciscus,

Yep.

After the initial directive there is a conference early in each month. But there is no guarantee that Hitler will call one (it wasn't a given historically nor is it in the game) in any given month. If not then the current objectives are retained.

He will always call one in early November (the last) and you whatever is decided then will carry through to the end of the game. This is done to provide the Player with a definitive aiming point for any final push.

Cheers,
Cameron



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