Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (Full Version)

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itkotw2000 -> Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/29/2015 3:02:50 PM)

I finally won as Germans so I decided to play as the Russians, and this has lead to some very weird, bordering on bug-like moves on their part.

I have it set to normal/normal, historical off, FOW off, Geneva conventions off.

1. AI drives fast divisions in one direction, then back a little bit in the same turn.
2. AI has no problem crossing Front boundaries, as if they are nor even programed in for the AI.
3. AI transfers Panzer Group headquarters around as if there are no penalties. Right now AI has 1PG HQ in the center of the Pripyat marshes and 2PG HQ south of Kiev by Cherkassy.
4. AI (partly due to game mechanics, see rant below) does not keep their units near their headquarters. The units are mixed up most of the time. The extreme example I saw was when I had Italians attacking Minsk and Cherkassy (south of Kiev) on the same turn. One word - WOW.
5. AI grinds their Panzer divisions down, they leave a single under-strength panzer division on the front line, only to have me smash it with conscripts. They also do this to their tank units when AI is Soviet. All tank units need to have their values reduced so the AI handles them better.


Game mechanic rant - As noted in #4 above the game handles supply very, very, very abstractly. The game tries to track oil and trucks to a Panzer group, but then doesn't care about how supply gets to infantry units. I would love to see a system when supply flowed from railway to depot to HQ to unit, down a traceable path, with penalties.

I will try to post a pic in a bit



willgamer -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/29/2015 4:39:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: itkotw
... but then doesn't care about how supply gets to infantry units....



Not quite true. Have you tried turning on the supply layer overlay button- see manual 4.14.4?



Vic -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/29/2015 4:41:33 PM)

Hi Itkotw,

Thanks for sharing your criticisms.

For an experienced player I advise to play the AI on challenging. Especially when giving the Germans to the AI.

The German AI plays to different rules than a human and that gives the AI a number of pro's and cons. It is for example not able to get those maximum bonusses on its PGs, but it has for example more leeway with front boundaries.

Also the German AI has a bigger challenge than the Soviet AI and sometimes it needs to split its relatively meager forces (in unit count) in order to avoid a potential breach. Once split it is sometimes tempting for the AI not to waste a turn joining them again.

Making the AI keep the panzer divisions in better shape is something I was thinking of as well. But the solution here is not easy since I would not like it to get too timid either.

Feel free to share a screenshot.

Best wishes,
Vic








itkotw2000 -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/29/2015 5:57:21 PM)

Yes, there is a supply layer, but as long as there are clear hexes it is possible to get supply at extreme distances. The game lumps all non panzer group units into the same supply mechanism. I have a picture posted , I hope it turns out. In the pic you can see 6th army has a unit near Kursk, while the HQ is in Zhitomyr. A distance from HQ of about 16 hexes (about 480km, mostly cross country). The HQ itself is about 10 hexes from the probable location of the FSB.

My problem with the supply is not that it is or is not possible for the Germans to supply a unit 480km away (I think they could handle it), I just don't like that there is no cost to the supply network to try to get to that unit. For panzer units, they must stay near the HQ. If the HQ gets too far from FSB you burn up your trucks (and fuel) trying to get supplies to the HQ. Infantry units? They are practically not limited, so long as there no impassable swamps, mountains, or rivers. You do not get a feeling of the flow of supplies for non-panzer units.

I would like to see units linked to their HQs somehow, and I would like to see the units of a HQ stick together most of the time. In my picture, you can see the Germans attacking Kiev with units from 4 different armies.

[image]local://upfiles/17921/CF3A3C0F5A624C439A71413490DC078E.jpg[/image]



etsadler -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/30/2015 12:11:51 AM)

I have to ask: Is that the way you generally have your HQs positioned, or are they so far from their troops for illustrative purposes?



itkotw2000 -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/30/2015 1:51:25 AM)

Haha, I am playing as the soviets in the picture, you can see my HQs on top my stacks of units at Minsk. The AI is playing the Germans.

Even if HQ position doesn't really matter, I tend to role-play with my HQs and position them in logical spots.



lancer -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/30/2015 8:41:50 AM)

Hi itkotw,

Supply has a few hidden tripwires that can 'cause you grief.

If you run short of truck columns (there are a number dedicated to Infantry and Artillery supply) you'll find yourself in a pickle as you will once the weather turns if you are too far from the transport grid.

Divisions moving outside of command range (5 hexes to HQ) get hit with substantial penalties which reflect, in part, the inability of the Armies organic truck columns to reach them with resupply.

When the sun in shining and you've got plenty of trucks, Russia is your oyster. It won't always be the case.

Cheers,
Cameron



itkotw2000 -> RE: Playing as Soviets - German AI... problems (12/30/2015 2:22:33 PM)

One other thing I forgot to mention in my first post is that the German AI never (I mean NEVER) moved any Finish units. Not one hex. As a joke, I didn't move any of my units on the border either. I didn't want to provoke them ( [;)] ).

The command range is a problem for the player but based on the pic I post above, it doesn't seem like much (if any) of a problem for the AI.

Just giving the AI bonuses and more bonuses, doesn't seem like the way to go. I would rather the AI play by the same rules and then get a 10%-20% bonus on attack and defense. If the AI isn't penalized by front boundaries, doesn't really keep track of oil/truck columns/rail conversion/FSBs, isn't penalized by HQ distance and related penalties, then there is practically no real (realistic) AI for the German side. I always was under the impression that in Barbarossa the Germans were limited by the distances involved and supply, as much as they were limited by the Russians.

That being said, I will say the German AI makes very good attacks. The AI launches attacks with mathematical precision and was able to grind any of my defenses down, eventually. The German AI is able to keep up an attack after they clear a hex. They push units out of a hex then smash the retreating units with fast divisions. Also, the German AI is very thorough at cleaning up pockets. It just makes me a little sad to know they are not playing by the rules (supply/distance problems are IMPORTANT rules for the Germans).

As I type this I just thought of a deeper problem - If the German AI has loose supply rules and command range rules, does the Russian strategy of trading ground for time really make sense? I will have to restart a German AI game and retreat my Soviets as fast as I can, just past Minsk, to see if there is any disruption on the German side. I am thinking, historically, the Russians retreated to a point where their reinforcements and German weariness/supply problems reached a balance point. Is there a balance point when the Germans are AI?

The supply system works well when the player plays the Germans and has to rely on the Panzer Groups. Since the Panzer groups have detailed supply, the German player is constantly balancing (and battling) the supply system to just get a few more hexes. I love it playing as the Germans.



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