Withdrawal Method

Withdrawal Method (Full Version)

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warspite1 -> Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 9:22:17 PM)
How are people dealing with the resting of entire armies? I mean, once the Soviet Union starts to really spread out, the Germans are so stretched that I find it impossible (with the exception perhaps of AGN, to withdraw an army for rest and refit. Any tips?

Michael T -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 10:05:03 PM)
I could only afford to rest the odd division here and there.

warspite1 -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 10:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael T I could only afford to rest the odd division here and there. warspite1 That is what I am finding too. In my current game I think I can get the 1st Panzergruppe out, but that will leave everyone else so stretched, and with any thought of offensive action, well and truly on the back-burner.

Speedysteve -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 10:23:01 PM)
Sounds like the struggles the Wehrmacht had to decide within RL to me[8D]

cato12 -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 10:23:24 PM)
Placing the infantry on sustained offensive as they catch up with the panzers slows the fatigue increase. After that im finding that its more of a gamble when to pull out an army.

warspite1 -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 10:25:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Speedy Sounds like the struggles the Wehrmacht had to decide within RL to me[8D] warspite1 Well yes, I am not suggesting there is a problem with the mechanic - from what I can see Barbarossa (and the fact that the Germans have too much to do with too little) is represented very well. I just wondered if anyone had any tips.

governato -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/2/2016 11:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 How are people dealing with the resting of entire armies? I mean, once the Soviet Union starts to really spread out, the Germans are so stretched that I find it impossible (with the exception perhaps of AGN, to withdraw an army for rest and refit. Any tips? In RL only Panzer Armies were entirely pulled out to refit (and mostly at the Korps level). Most infantry armies would only rotate infantry divisions from the front lines. Also, while not done enough in wargames, every army would keep a division or two `in reserve' at almost all times. Russian Fronts 'd eventually keep entire armies in reserve, to plug holes when they appeared.

Duck Doc -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 12:17:08 AM)
Oops, I opened the thread thinking you were talking about a method of contraception. That shows you where my mind hangs out.[:D] But I digress. Not practical to withdraw a whole infantry army and the R&R card mechanism needs to be retooled. Having said that I can tell you I have R&R'ed PzG's on the line risking a bloody nose and have gotten away with it against the AI. I have also pulled them back and R&R'ed them too. Infantry never gets a break. I am not sure how much R&R an idle division gets without the card. Would be good to know. Would be very tedious to card every division for R&R hence my thinking it needs an adjustment. Carry on!

etsadler -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 3:20:41 AM)
Against the AI I rest infantry armies in place frequently. They are immobile, so I only rest armies that are in a good position. I must be missing something here. What is the perceived problem with resting Armies?

theGoat -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 8:55:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RickInVA Against the AI I rest infantry armies in place frequently. They are immobile, so I only rest armies that are in a good position. I must be missing something here. What is the perceived problem with resting Armies? If divisions are resting they get big defensive penalties so if they get hit then it hurts. So, resting in place can work but it is a gamble. I've only been able to rest PGs 'cos they can be relatively easily pulled out of the line so an infantry screen can protect them - at the obvious cost in time. Infantry don't get much rest alas, except on those rare occasions I've a couple of "spare" PP. Switching the Infantry to Offensive rather than Blitzkrieg is the best way I've found to "rest" them...

etsadler -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 3:09:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theGoat quote: ORIGINAL: RickInVA Against the AI I rest infantry armies in place frequently. They are immobile, so I only rest armies that are in a good position. I must be missing something here. What is the perceived problem with resting Armies? If divisions are resting they get big defensive penalties so if they get hit then it hurts. So, resting in place can work but it is a gamble. I've only been able to rest PGs 'cos they can be relatively easily pulled out of the line so an infantry screen can protect them - at the obvious cost in time. Infantry don't get much rest alas, except on those rare occasions I've a couple of "spare" PP. Switching the Infantry to Offensive rather than Blitzkrieg is the best way I've found to "rest" them... The manual does state that it suffers "moderate penalties" if attacked while resting, but I can't find anything in the documentation that quantifies it. I also don't see any indication of a penalty in the unit descriptions while they are resting. I feel if it is not significant enough to be displayed it isn't significant enough for me to worry about. YMMV

Speedysteve -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 3:31:34 PM)
It is displayed. If a unit is on rest it has (from memory) -20% Off/Def and -40 AP. Regards

etsadler -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 3:59:06 PM)
It has zero AP while resting. You are thinking, I believe, of the penalties for changing stance.

Speedysteve -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 4:00:51 PM)
Ah. Sorry mis read your post. Yes was thinking that

baloo7777 -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/3/2016 11:08:54 PM)
I only rest Div's now, even vs AI. I play on normal AI with extra time for AI. The time I rested PzG 1 (as I had no fuel anyways), the AI attacked a couple different 'resting' units over an 8 day (2 turn) timeline. One unit was a motorized infantry that was stuck in the mud of July, and it was mauled ( all !! on unit info). I have been experimenting with having an infantry unit and Panzer unit on the same hex and resting one while the other is not resting (but doesn't move).

dhhd -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/26/2016 5:42:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: baloo7777 I only rest Div's now, even vs AI. I play on normal AI with extra time for AI. The time I rested PzG 1 (as I had no fuel anyways), the AI attacked a couple different 'resting' units over an 8 day (2 turn) timeline. One unit was a motorized infantry that was stuck in the mud of July, and it was mauled ( all !! on unit info). I have been experimenting with having an infantry unit and Panzer unit on the same hex and resting one while the other is not resting (but doesn't move). How is that working out? I'm still trying to figure out the best way to deal with refitting panzer groups.

James Ward -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/26/2016 6:57:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dhhd quote: ORIGINAL: baloo7777 I only rest Div's now, even vs AI. I play on normal AI with extra time for AI. The time I rested PzG 1 (as I had no fuel anyways), the AI attacked a couple different 'resting' units over an 8 day (2 turn) timeline. One unit was a motorized infantry that was stuck in the mud of July, and it was mauled ( all !! on unit info). I have been experimenting with having an infantry unit and Panzer unit on the same hex and resting one while the other is not resting (but doesn't move). How is that working out? I'm still trying to figure out the best way to deal with refitting panzer groups. Resting just 1 division at a time isn't a bad way to go. You can't basically keep one panzer division always refitting. Plus it cuts down on your fuel usage a bit.

dhhd -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/26/2016 8:22:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: James Ward quote: ORIGINAL: dhhd quote: ORIGINAL: baloo7777 I only rest Div's now, even vs AI. I play on normal AI with extra time for AI. The time I rested PzG 1 (as I had no fuel anyways), the AI attacked a couple different 'resting' units over an 8 day (2 turn) timeline. One unit was a motorized infantry that was stuck in the mud of July, and it was mauled ( all !! on unit info). I have been experimenting with having an infantry unit and Panzer unit on the same hex and resting one while the other is not resting (but doesn't move). How is that working out? I'm still trying to figure out the best way to deal with refitting panzer groups. Resting just 1 division at a time isn't a bad way to go. You can't basically keep one panzer division always refitting. Plus it cuts down on your fuel usage a bit. I've mostly been refitting PGs as a whole, as the PP cost seems more efficient that way. I'm also interesting in how the experiments with having a non-resting unit and a resting unit in the same hex - is the resting unit still in trouble in case of an attack?

James Ward -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/26/2016 8:26:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dhhd quote: ORIGINAL: James Ward quote: ORIGINAL: dhhd quote: ORIGINAL: baloo7777 I only rest Div's now, even vs AI. I play on normal AI with extra time for AI. The time I rested PzG 1 (as I had no fuel anyways), the AI attacked a couple different 'resting' units over an 8 day (2 turn) timeline. One unit was a motorized infantry that was stuck in the mud of July, and it was mauled ( all !! on unit info). I have been experimenting with having an infantry unit and Panzer unit on the same hex and resting one while the other is not resting (but doesn't move). How is that working out? I'm still trying to figure out the best way to deal with refitting panzer groups. Resting just 1 division at a time isn't a bad way to go. You can't basically keep one panzer division always refitting. Plus it cuts down on your fuel usage a bit. I've mostly been refitting PGs as a whole, as the PP cost seems more efficient that way. I'm also interesting in how the experiments with having a non-resting unit and a resting unit in the same hex - is the resting unit still in trouble in case of an attack? You are right it is more cost effective for PP's but you take the whole army out of the fight during that time period. If you just rest a division a turn you keep 75% of the army in action at all times.

baloo7777 -> RE: Withdrawal Method (1/27/2016 12:12:39 AM)
Against a pbem opponent, make sure to protect the resting Pz Div so the Soviets can't attack with a stack and a couple Tank Divs. I have been on the receiving end of said attacks, and had both Pz and Motor Inf units take heavy losses. It works against the AI pretty well though.

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