Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (Full Version)

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ChuckBerger -> Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 7:41:58 AM)

I know it's been raised previously, but I really think the near-certainty of Finnish intervention is too a-historical and too easy for the German player. It didn't happen in real life, even though both Narva and Luga were held for years by the Germans.

So a proposed fix: Make the base Finnish intervention chance 1% per turn once Luga and Narva are held by the Germans. Then add a few decisions that allow the German player to boost this %, at a significant PP cost. For instance, a decision costing 10PP that has a chance of increasing intervention chance by 4% per turn.

I know every German player wants to play with the Finns. It's only natural. But in a game like this, there should be a cost commensurate with the real-world fact that the Finns resisted German pressure very effectively. The German player should have to weigh up how much effort to put into pressuring the Finns, not simply be rewarded by Finnish intervention every time they roll up to the Luga line.

Finally, the capture of Leningrad should probably increase the intervention % significantly.

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Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 7:52:46 AM)

+1



Speedysteve -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 8:17:31 AM)

+1



Isokron -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 8:24:44 AM)

This would probably be a better system, but I would also want to see the probability raise unless the soviets keep a certain amount of troops near the border. As it is now the smartest thing would seem to be to move the 7A and Leningrad army as quickly as possible south while having 23A withdraw to the fortified area around Leningrad. At least the 7A should be forced to stay around Petrozavodsk to avoid an finish intervention. Maybe make the finish less likely to intervene if they take losses on their side of the border in order to give the soviets some incentive to fight them instead of just withdrawing as fast as possible.



Speedysteve -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 8:51:54 AM)

Yes there's should be some system for penalising the Soviets/benefitting the Axis if the Soviet just leaves the borders totally un-manned as that's also gaming the system



Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 9:27:21 AM)

+100



Orm -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 10:11:50 AM)

How about getting one event each time any of Tallinn, Luga, Narva, Leningrad, and Moscow, is captured that may increase the likelihood of Finnish entrance into the war. The political cost could be modified by the standing with AH, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and Joseph Goebbels. If you pay then there could be a one time roll that Finland joins. Perhaps modified negatively by atrocities committed by the Germans. Without any positive events the chance of Finland entering could be lowered significantly (if any chance at all).

I am not all that fond that there is no events affecting the likelihood of Finland joining.

Maybe there should be a Soviet card decreasing the likelihood? Stalin petitions Great Britain and, or, US to put pressure on Finland?



Flaviusx -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 12:31:08 PM)

Not clear to me at least that Finnish intervention is that certain under present rules. I make it a point to deny Narva and Luga and usually can keep both.

But doing so definitely frees you up to use 7. Army and either LMD or 23. Army elsewhere (LMD can hold the line against Finnish border incursions well enough and long enough to make the PP cost exorbitant. 23. Army is bigger and can generally get away mostly intact for use elsewhere.)




ChuckBerger -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 1:12:14 PM)

I play with house rule (the only one I propose to prospective opponents) that 7th and 23rd armies have to stay put until either Luga or Narva falls.



Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 6:56:42 PM)

I wouldn't use that HR again as it means you can't hold Narva or Luga and this guarantees the Finns will come in at some point. The whole Finnish entry and border garrison needs some surgery.




lancer -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/3/2016 11:07:30 PM)

Hi,

The Finns went their own way, did their own thing.

Which is the reason it's probability based rather than a result of decisions that you can use to manipulate them into joining the war which is something the Germans couldn't do at the time despite their best efforts.

Denuding the border region of Soviet forces is pretty gamey and it's something that's worth looking at.

The % chance of crossing the historical border once Luga/Narva are taken is an arbitrary number I decided upon. It's small enough to keep you guessing as to when the Finns enter but large enough to ensure that at some point they will.

Lowering it would create a situation where the Finns would join only in some games and I'd suggest that there would be quite a few players who would feel upset that, in their game, they didn't get the benefit of the Finns.

Cheers,
Cameron



nukkxx5058 -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 6:00:43 AM)

And what if the randomisation was also about the scale of the FIN intervention (ie. the number of troops the FIN allocate to the front) ?
In some game the player would have the whole FIN army, in some others just one or 2 divisions to simulate a limited Finish support. No ?



ChuckBerger -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 10:40:02 AM)


quote:



Lowering it would create a situation where the Finns would join only in some games and I'd suggest that there would be quite a few players who would feel upset that, in their game, they didn't get the benefit of the Finns.

Cheers,
Cameron


I can't speak for most players, only myself... and I for one feel upset (OK, not really upset, but puzzled and a bit annoyed) that in my German games I don't have to do anything or make any hard choices regarding the Finns - and in my Soviet games I always have to face the Finns no matter what.

It feels really at odds with the approach you've taken in all other design decisions in the game, which seek to face the player to make tough decisions about resource allocation and relationship management. This is the one bit that feels really broken. MichaelT and I have just ended a game (on friendly terms) in part because we're both dissatisfied with how things play out with the Finns.

If there are German players who always want the Finns to intervene free of charge, give them a setup option, but don't inflict it on gamers who want a historical experience!

Cheers mate!



Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 10:56:03 AM)

quote:

If there are German players who always want the Finns to intervene free of charge, give them a setup option, but don't inflict it on gamers who want a historical experience!


I have to agree with this. Maybe make an option for a much more difficult Finnish intervention along with some garrison requirements for the Soviets.



Flaviusx -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 11:16:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

If there are German players who always want the Finns to intervene free of charge, give them a setup option, but don't inflict it on gamers who want a historical experience!


I have to agree with this. Maybe make an option for a much more difficult Finnish intervention along with some garrison requirements for the Soviets.


Personally, I'd be thrilled with a game option that eliminates both the Finns and 7. and 23. Army and calls it a day on the Finnish front. It's a sideshow that very few east front games get right. The best design choice is mostly to leave it out (as was done with Murmansk here.)

There's a vocal cheering section out there for the Finns, but the whole thing is more trouble than it is worth imo. Not really part of the main show, and has a tendency to be difficult to work into it. WITE never got this right, and neither does this game, entirely.



lancer -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 9:55:59 PM)

Hi,

The key design element with the Finns is their independence. The Germans were unable to bend them to their will. No formal agreement existed between them. The Finns acted in self interest and, to an extent, played both sides off against each other at differing points in the war.

However there is plenty of scope to change the Finnish situation using the What If? decisions at the start of the game.

Both sides have options here to either significantly increase the chance of Finnish intervention or to shut it down altogether.

At a cost.

Cheers,
Cameron



Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 10:11:58 PM)

The thing is I like the historical settings. Not really the what if's. And historically Finland did not push in to Russia like they do in DC3. I guess we might just have to make up some sophisticated HR.



governato -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/4/2016 10:53:34 PM)

the real big difference with the historical outcome is if Leningrad is taken. Perhaps the chances for the Finns to join in should be 0% until that happens to even the playing field between players. IF Leningrad is taken then any direct comparisons with the historical outcome are off anyway and then the Finns should get a small chance (per turn?)to join.

while on the topic: should we worry that Leningrad seems to support unlimited Soviet troops when isolated? Is that truly the case?
Should there be a provision such as:

-If some relevant hex on Lake Ladoga is taken by the German Player then Leningrad supply is cut off in XX turns






Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/5/2016 12:29:07 AM)

Yes Leningrad supplying unlimited troops is OTT. I think Vic said he was going to look at it maybe?



willgamer -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/5/2016 1:12:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes Leningrad supplying unlimited troops ......


ALL port cities supply unlimited troops... [8|]



Michael T -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/5/2016 3:15:39 AM)

No not like Leningrad AFAIK. A regular port will only supply the units in the port I think. But Leningrad supplies any unit with a supply line to it.

I think that is the difference. But I could be wrong.



lancer -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/6/2016 8:27:20 AM)

Hi,

Leningrad gets enough supplies to hold out.

It's on the list to make a 'isolated' check to shut that down or at least drop it to a minimal level (it's a big city, they could hold out for a bit).

Port cities receive supply but they are only helpful for units within the port itself.

Minor Ports are also on the list for any isolated Soviet units to have a % chance of being automatically evacuated.

Cheers,
Cameron



produit -> RE: Petition to make it harder for Finland to intervene (1/8/2016 11:00:29 AM)

Triggering the Finns intervention should perhaps be linked to something more complicated as just taking Narva and Luga. Both should be captured as a basis, but with perhaps more complicated addition such as cutting the direct line of supply from Moscow (rail-line) (small probability), cutting completely Lake Ladoga supply line (higher probability), or capturing Leningrad (automatic involvement).

Concerning the fact that the Soviet player can remove all its troops, it is not really the case, as the Finns can already advance, but with huge penalties in attack, but if Leningrad is left with only 1 division defending it, I would attack with the Finns, even with the PP penalties.

Finally, perhaps the German division coming from Finland should perhaps be allowed to move freely in SU territories (if it is not already the case), forcing the SU player to defend a bit its territory.



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