Truk and evading KB (Full Version)

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LCMS -> Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 5:01:40 AM)

Hello. First time I have played a campaign mode. As the USN, can I take the Lexington and the Enterprise (maybe include the Saratoga), and fly a few bombing missions against Truk? My goal is to soften up the port and airfield; try to deny enemy use of it's extended facilities. Also build up some experience for my air crews. I don't believe 3 CVs can match 6 CVs, including battle-tested air crews. If this is a bad idea, please provide alternate idea. I don't want to ply hide and seek with KB.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 5:13:49 AM)

Too risky... do what the USN did in real life... avoid the KB, attack places where you know it is not there.

EDIT: avoid Truk... because even LBAs (land bases aircraft... the infamous Betties/ Nells) and land based Zeros can inflict heavy losses to your carriers
go to the outskirts instead,



BBfanboy -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 5:20:56 AM)

It is hard to get much damage on a high-level AF with DBs and TBs - they just don't carry enough bombs to close the runway. You would have to stay for several days and that is sure to be fatal.

Get the experience attacking softer targets. Raid his supply or resource convoys. Hit a small amphib invasion not covered by KB.

You should also be using carriers to escort any large-scale troop movements by sea. You cannot afford to lose a division's worth of unrestricted troops in 1942.



Itdepends -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 8:10:01 AM)

Truk has pretty AA if you're using the more recent updates. Definitely wouldn't go raiding it with your carrier aircraft.



Dili -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 12:00:31 PM)

So you want spoilers, i wonder what is the pleasure of playing like that...



btd64 -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 12:50:23 PM)

Better to pick targets in the Marshall's and/or small TF's to cut your teeth on. Also, setup your CV'S in their own TF's to avoid the allied CV penalty. I believe it is a coordination penalty....GP



Alfred -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 1:26:58 PM)

It was very risking in real life for the early 1942 American carrier raids.  Trying to emulate them in AE is even more foolhardy as the risk:reward ratio is very poor.  The OP is asking for tactical deployment of a strategic asset.  Never a good idea.

1.  In AE airfields are not suppressed like real life.  Repair of airfields is very quick.  They stay suppressed only if they are continually bombed without respite.  That can only be done by land based aircraft as carrier air can't stay long on station.

2.  A quick in/out carrier raid is practically guaranteed not to close the airfield that turn, let alone the following turn.  Means Japan can rush Netties in "overnight" which can catch the retreating American carriers on the morrow.  With their torpedoes, in early 1942, expect the Netties to sink the carriers over the following 2 days.

3.  No enemy airfield justifies a carrier visit in early 1942.  Only a large developed base with industry is a valid strategic objective for a strategic asset.  Of course such a base will tend to be rather well defended by the enemy.

4.  Unlike real life, the American carriers and their pilots can gain experience without engaging in any combat whatsoever.  The real life risky raids purpose was to gain experience, an objective which doesn't apply in AE.

5.  Not wanting to play hide and seek with the KB reveals a mindset which is almost certain to lose the American carriers in 1943.  The KB retains a qualitative edge all throughout 1943.  That edge only starts to dissipate if the KB is used tactically and operational airframe losses mount, or when the Hellcat and the Essexes start to arrive in the second quarter of 1943.  There are many non glamorous roles for the American carriers to undertake in 1942.

Alfred



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 3:00:12 PM)

The best use of the Allied CV force is as a 'fleet in being' for a great deal of the time. If the Japanese don't know where it is it could be anywhere, so it exerts a much greater degree of leverage by its not being seen.

As soon as you are tracked on the map you lose that.....

If your enemy doesn't know where you are then they have to protect far more places, and be much more careful in where they deploy and show the KB.

The Allies can have a lot of fun messing with the Japanese minds over this, and remember the more you force the Imperial CVs to chase around the more fuel they use up and the more wear and tear they accumulate, and the more ops losses on their pilots and airframes.

Fight with the things you have an advantage in.....

Roger



boxof9 -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 4:19:56 PM)

Like yourself I'm also playing my first campaign(currently in May 1942). I made the mistake of exposing a carrier early on and lost it. Don't feel like you need to have your carriers at sea. As others have stated the KB is to be very respected.



biggins89 -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 6:16:05 PM)

Don't be in such a hurry to lose your carriers. You'll need them to secure your early moves once you start against the enemy. There are ample opportunities to use your CVs just building your defenses. Denying Midway, Palmyra, Christmas, Canton, and Baker Islands from the JNF always keep carriers busy through '42 and into '43. Plus there is Noumea and New Guinea to worry about.



LCMS -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/9/2016 10:49:39 PM)

Truk has heavy air cover, so go after softer targets. As admiral in chief, I will order a raid on Tokyo.
Ok just foolin'

I might use my carriers to hit the Marshall islands and vicinity. I prefer to use them on the offensive, rather than escorting troop transports. But perhaps that is a requirement.

Next question: could my CVs be used to patrol the SW pacific, Philippines, or Indochina....specifically looking for enemy transport or surface fleets? My guess is those situations would be without air cover. Would love to sink the Ise or Mutsu.

Forgive my ignorance of naval strategy. I never served.



BBfanboy -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/10/2016 4:23:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LCMS

Truk has heavy air cover, so go after softer targets. As admiral in chief, I will order a raid on Tokyo.
Ok just foolin'

I might use my carriers to hit the Marshall islands and vicinity. I prefer to use them on the offensive, rather than escorting troop transports. But perhaps that is a requirement.

Next question: could my CVs be used to patrol the SW pacific, Philippines, or Indochina....specifically looking for enemy transport or surface fleets? My guess is those situations would be without air cover. Would love to sink the Ise or Mutsu.

Forgive my ignorance of naval strategy. I never served.


I do not look at escort of troop convoys as defensive. Any time you advance your troops thousands of miles toward the enemy you are setting up your offence!



AndyDuke -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/11/2016 11:34:49 AM)

Tried raiding Truk in an old game against the AI. Must have been late 43 and I had about 1000 aircraft spread around several CV task forces only to find the AI had 2000 aircraft on Truk. Lost 6 CVs over a three day period without denting Truk's defences much. Now I engage in hit and run and only engage when I'm positive that I have the upper hand i.e. against unsupported invasions and the like.



kaleun -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/11/2016 9:40:51 PM)

quote:

its not being seen


This illustrates the advantage of not being seen[:D]



LCMS -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/15/2016 2:34:48 AM)

How do you feel about this strategy for my 3 CVs?
Offensive: raids against Marshall Islands; hunt for SF and transports in the east and southeast Pacific
Defensive: defend New Guinea and Solomons against IJ encroachment
Logistics: transfer available air wings to key bases; provide cover for transports



Alfred -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/15/2016 3:22:06 PM)

That isn't strategy.  All sound war strategy has always been built on the foundations of logistics.  Your latest proposal remains tactical deployments which are mutually contradictory.

When your pixelated servicemen die, you are not going to be required to write letters to inform the next of kin.  Just do what you want with your carriers, however inappropriate it might be.  You are one of those players who is only going to learn when you suffer defeats and the consequences of your decisions.  Against the computer you'll probably, but not guaranteed, get away with unsound plans.

Alfred



Ambassador -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/15/2016 5:34:22 PM)

Try this for a strategy with your 3 CVs : keep them hidden, keep them safe, train their pilots.

The moment you approach a base, and even more so a cluster of mutually supporting bases (like the Marshalls), is the moment you risk losing at least one carrier. Early in '42, your fighter pilots are not good enough to shoot down every bomber on naval attack. A single squadron of 27 Netties, unescorted, will see half their number fly through your CAP, and their elite pilots will torpedo at the very least one of your CVs, if not two or three. With a long way to PH, you will see them sink.

And there's the risk of running over a sub (I lost Saratoga to a single torpedo...).

And why would you take such a risk ? There's nothing strategically critical to strike at ! Sink a few transports (mostly xAK-t) and escorts (PB or other), maybe a pair of DD ? At most, 50 VP - while the loss of a CV is 300 ! Any damage on the bases will quickly be repaired.

Even if all goes well, and you don't lose a CV the first time*, you'll lose pilots and airframes. You don't have too many of either that early (or for the whole '42 FWIW). Lose a dozen then , it's a dozen less available in Autumn to cover a first offensive operation.

So, stand back, train pilots thoroughly, hoard the planes, let the AI rumble a little for a while. Don't risk your carriers until you have six of them with a fully trained airwing.


* in addition, you might become even bolder (= rash) thereafter, and lose even more CV on a second raid.



jmalter -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 3:02:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
Try this for a strategy with your 3 CVs : keep them hidden, keep them safe, train their pilots.

Ambass gives sound advice! Adopt the 'fleet in being' idea - don't expose your CVs. They have a cadre of decent pilots, but their aircraft are aweful - they can't compete against the IJ. The CVs (& their escorts) have ineffective AA protection until they get their scheduled upgrades.

Also, the at-start USN doesn't have shore-based airgroups to train pilots for CV squadrons. The at-start pilots need add'l training to become Jedi knights, 1/3rd (min) of their airgroups should start training newb replacements.

The at-start USN CV airgroups don't have enough power to fight, and the ships don't have enough power to defend. Best wait to upgrade to better planes, & refit the CVs & DDs for better armament (improved radar & ASW as well as AA).




Ambassador -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 8:28:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Also, the at-start USN doesn't have shore-based airgroups to train pilots for CV squadrons. The at-start pilots need add'l training to become Jedi knights, 1/3rd (min) of their airgroups should start training newb replacements.


Indeed. Regarding fighters, I usually train the starting pilots and replacements, until the starting cadre are high enough - then I send them to the reserve to train more replacements.
Re: bombers, I train them longer, to improve additionnal skills (search and/or ASW, never ground bombing) before sending them to the reserve.

Switching the pilots is quick enough, there's no great need to have the carriers ready at the first call, so I use every group for training. If a sudden need arises, it must be a big enough threat to warrant a sortie by my carriers - and such a threat usually including KB, I'll think twice before doing it.



LCMS -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 6:39:21 PM)

This is my strategy when it comes to naval warfare...[:D]

I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything -- except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the a**. We're gonna kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose!



rustysi -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 9:39:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LCMS

This is my strategy when it comes to naval warfare...[:D]

I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything -- except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the a**. We're gonna kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose!


That philosophy may be fine for '44, but do it in '42 and you're gonna get your 'a' handed to you. Then again if you insist on doing it "your" way eventually you'll learn. Especially when you get to playing a live opponent. Against th AI you can do just about anything. Just keep in mind that old habits die hard.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 9:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCMS

This is my strategy when it comes to naval warfare...[:D]

I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything -- except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the a**. We're gonna kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose!

Probably sensible to give who you are quoting there..... I'm guessing its Patton. Mistake to quote him if it is for the Pacific Theatre as its a very different ball game, as you will find out. Logistics, logistics, logistics

Roger



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 9:55:30 PM)

Good old Google search, so it is Patton, not actually credited for his naval skills....

Roger



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Truk and evading KB (1/16/2016 10:00:44 PM)

Mid October 1944 and apart from when I was careless and let my opponent trap some of my Cvs early on I have not used them offensively yet.

Doing fine without them thank you, sat in port most of the time - but my opponent doesn't know which port.


Roger

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