RE: In side the magic box of the air system

RE: In side the magic box of the air system (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/10/2016 9:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LiquidSky That's why I don't disband the Luftwaffe bombers. If you use them in quieter areas of the front you can sometimes get away with only losing a few of them. Even in more heavily defended areas, I was trading half the Luftwaffe bombers for good vps. Before the rockets got fixed I was also killing an awful lot of guns and afvs. But the dive bombers are pretty good too. What I be asking is why the big freebee day every week? Why so many loses on 1 day then the 3000-5000 men, 200-500 guns and 50-200 AFV’s lost to 40-50 planes then next to nothing the other 6 days. The WA bombers get the same freebee every turn even when you fly over a small group of planes generally the cut off is at 20%. And in all the other cases I did not use rockets, always uses bombs or drop tanks if I even used FB’s for attacking. As we know the WA's have allot more and can do more with it. As with WitE I am not that smart but when something is wrong I hand it to morveal and he has to find out what is wrong in the code. I am just am player all I can do is post the info and someone smarter then me has to find out just whats wrong. Its happens in any hex vs what ever units, but the effects are deflated slightly by terrain and fort levels. Its effects are inflated by a depot, HQ or AA in the hex or combinations of them and if u fly escort's even 3 not sure WTH that matters? Plane type/ load out size of raid also effects over all loses, but its generally always the same one inflated day. If you hit the lower % right you can get the inflated day and not have to bomb the other 6 - which is a red flag for me. Like I said generally at this point morveal takes over digging into the code. I am not doing anything magical. You have what I know so good luck. Off to watch the rest of the game.

KWG -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/10/2016 9:43:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp quote: ORIGINAL: KWG Really? only 12 for the unit that was in the thickest fighting from start to end? As most reports have the Totenkopf losing over half all AVF and vehicles. You have to distinguish between damaged and destroyed. As the Germans were on the offensive they controlled the battlefield and they were very meticulate in recovering their AFVs. German irrecoverable tank and StuG losses at Kursk numbered fewer than 300 total. The Germans lost far more tanks during retreats than during offensives. Army Group Centre in July 1943 lost 311 AFVs, of which only 88 came during Kursk. The defensive battle at Orel was far more costly. [image]http://s21.postimg.org/4junaq8nr/table1.jpg[/image] [image]http://s14.postimg.org/vnea4mrch/table2.jpg[/image] quote: You have to distinguish between damaged and destroyed. As the Germans were on the offensive they controlled the battlefield and they were very meticulate in recovering their AFVs. German irrecoverable tank and StuG losses at Kursk numbered fewer than 300 total. The Germans lost far more tanks during retreats than during offensives. Army Group Centre in July 1943 lost 311 AFVs, of which only 88 came during Kursk. The defensive battle at Orel was far more costly. Not much of a SWAN SONG of the German Armored Forces. Exactly as Ive been saying about the games loss report. Some of the losses will return. Plus destroyed = left on battle field? Or destroyed + left on field. Ive broken track on armor and it canbe as bad as being destroyed. Yet only 12 thats almost still full strength So Totenkofp left Kursk with all but 12 AFVs?

Seminole -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 12:36:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton I am just am player all I can do is post the info and someone smarter then me has to find out just whats wrong. Can you post a before air execution phase save so we can delve into particulars? I'm down to 1 game waiting on me, so I might have time to test soon.

Harrybanana -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 2:06:45 AM)
Pelton, I am at least partially on your side on this. Your data shows bombing creating way more casualties than it should especially, it would appear, to HQ Units. But I for one would appreciate more data on how your bombers are creating these casualties. I have run some test as well and have not been nearly as effective as you. In particular could you post data showing: 1. How many days per week are your bombers flying these missions? 2. How many bombers do you have in each mission? 3. What are the bomber air groups morale at the end of the week? 4. How much of the damage is being caused by the heavies and how much by the medium bombers and FBs? 5. How many of the casualties are being taken by the HQs as opposed to the combat units? Like Seminole I would really appreciate it if you could post your save just prior to Air execution.

SigUp -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 6:42:42 AM)
The issue here isn't with the bombers, it's with the vulnerability of the HQ units. HQs have been extremely soft going back to WitE. The biggest killers here are tactical bombers/fighter bombers. Of course the more packed an HQ is the more you can kill. Even a small number of tactical bombers coming through can create a bloodbath as I have shown in my post earlier with the five-digit losses caused to SHAEF.

Denniss -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 9:00:58 AM)
Is all the data posted with FoW Off ? Strange to see WitW still having vulnerable HQs - most of the assigned units and support squad should actually be spread to multiple units with HQ just acting as virtual force concentration.

loki100 -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 9:52:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp The issue here isn't with the bombers, it's with the vulnerability of the HQ units. HQs have been extremely soft going back to WitE. The biggest killers here are tactical bombers/fighter bombers. Of course the more packed an HQ is the more you can kill. Even a small number of tactical bombers coming through can create a bloodbath as I have shown in my post earlier with the five-digit losses caused to SHAEF. completely agree ... to do sensible test you have to remove all HQs from the target area - while its less easy to do the WiTE exploit of deliberately hitting HQs they will distort any bombing reports, especially when all you've done is to report a single iteration quote: ORIGINAL: Denniss Is all the data posted with FoW Off ? Strange to see WitW still having vulnerable HQs - most of the assigned units and support squad should actually be spread to multiple units with HQ just acting as virtual force concentration. think that SHAEF is a bit of a special case - a lot of allied players don't really bother moving most of the AA that builds up in that command away so it may be over-stuffed. But there is a wider issue which is that senior command units in WiTW seem to lock up more manpower and stuff than they do in WiTE. edit: don't really want to add to the Kursk debate but my understanding was that AGC did have to abandon quite a few damaged tanks as the Soviet Orel offensive forced them to redeploy and the Soviet formations on the north side of the Kursk salient were in a better state to go over to the offensive. Agree about AGS in that they controlled the battlefields and managed an orderly withdrawal - but I think the Soviets over-ran a number of repair sites once the AGS front broke after the fall of Kharkov?

soeren01 -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 10:11:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton I am just am player all I can do is post the info and someone smarter then me has to find out just whats wrong. Can you post a before air execution phase save so we can delve into particulars? I'm down to 1 game waiting on me, so I might have time to test soon. I would like to see a save too.

SigUp -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 11:08:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 think that SHAEF is a bit of a special case - a lot of allied players don't really bother moving most of the AA that builds up in that command away so it may be over-stuffed. But there is a wider issue which is that senior command units in WiTW seem to lock up more manpower and stuff than they do in WiTE. Yes, SHAEF is just extremely packed with 180.000 men, so I set up the test again with the Westwall scenario and targeted various HQs. Fog of war is off, recon on days 1-3 then a single 500 bomber strike mainly using fighter bombers (trained as fighters) plus a few level bombers on days 4-7 from 15.000 feet. The FW-190s are equipped with one 250kg bomb. The He-111s with one 1000kg bomb and four 250kg ones. And the Ju-88s with two 500kg bombs. The Allied airforce is set to rest. First VIII British Corps: [image]http://s18.postimg.org/fi19r8idl/test_VIIICorps.jpg[/image] Then 2nd British Army: [image]http://s16.postimg.org/exrr59pb9/test_2nd_BRArmy.jpg[/image] 21st Army Group: [image]http://s23.postimg.org/wrsm19v23/test_21st_Army_Group.jpg[/image] SHAEF: [image]http://s18.postimg.org/wrviv2ccp/test_SHAEF.jpg[/image] VII US Corps: [image]http://s11.postimg.org/v5d5pbair/test_VIICorps.jpg[/image] 1st US Army: [image]http://s15.postimg.org/nuqvrslaj/test_1st_USArmy.jpg[/image] Also to check the effect on regular units, Guards Armoured Division: [image]http://s30.postimg.org/g0pbg9nup/test_Guards_Armoured.jpg[/image] Stack of units (6th Guard Armoured Brigade, 8th Armoured Brigade, 43rd Infantry Division) [image]http://s30.postimg.org/jbiqd9k3l/test_stackunit.jpg[/image] Last but not least, bombing a hex with more than one HQ (XII British, XXX British Corps plus Irene Brigade) [image]http://s21.postimg.org/8kec4opxz/test_stack_HQ.jpg[/image] If anybody wants to try it out, here's the save file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j611m9bvkong0r5/test.sav?dl=0

Helpless -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 11:42:58 AM)
quote: If anybody wants to try it out, here's the save file: Thanks. Downloaded. Will check it out.

Q-Ball -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 5:52:09 PM)
A reasonable HR on unit bombing might be to limit it to the front and 1 hex back. Or forbidding the intentional bombing of HQ units, but it's tougher to measure intent. Keeping your HQs a couple hexes back would keep them from getting unit bombed if that HR was followed.

loki100 -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 6:42:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball A reasonable HR on unit bombing might be to limit it to the front and 1 hex back. Or forbidding the intentional bombing of HQ units, but it's tougher to measure intent. Keeping your HQs a couple hexes back would keep them from getting unit bombed if that HR was followed. problem is even in WiTE its hard to avoid. The usual houserule is no bombing of unstacked HQs and its a good rule or you can slaughter vast numbers of Support Units. But if you are looking over your opponent's defensive lines, you'll sometimes only have enought recon to tell you that there are units behind the lines. Now in WiTE, as in WiTW, bombing potential reserves is a good pre-attack tactic and I've certainly hit HQs that way - all I can do then is to apologise to my opponent. In WiTW if you set up an area bombing pattern then its quite easy to hit a HQ. In a way the ideal solution would be to address whatever part of the game code is triggering this behaviour - its clearly related to the presence of SUs in the HQ - but obv have no idea how feasible that is

Seminole -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 6:44:07 PM)
quote: A reasonable HR on unit bombing might be to limit it to the front and 1 hex back. Or forbidding the intentional bombing of HQ units, but it's tougher to measure intent. Sometimes I mess up changing the target type from unit/interdict/etc. I wouldn't want to piss someone off with respect to the house rule because I overlooked a setting (it pisses me off enough as it is when I realize I forgot to change it).

HMSWarspite -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 7:29:07 PM)
OK Guys, lets slow down a little shall we? It does, on the face of it seem that HQ air attacks cause a lot of casualties, however the examples here are rather on the high side for air attacks. I don't know about you, but raising 500 ground attack aircraft is not that easy, and would be 3-4 times what I would use on GA. I would rather split them than go hunting HQ with them. I don't think anyone has shown this is a game breaker in need of HR. Having said this, HQ density and hardness does seem to need study. Let's do this scientifically though. Whats the causalities we get with 500 FB on an infantry div? What casualties do we get with 500 FB split in to say 3 ADs onto 3 Inf Divs? And the same on 3HQs. Then we can debate if it is ahistoric, whether it matters, petition 2by3 to fix and debate HR...

Q-Ball -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 7:34:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite Let's do this scientifically though. Whats the causalities we get with 500 FB on an infantry div? What casualties do we get with 500 FB split in to say 3 ADs onto 3 Inf Divs? And the same on 3HQs. Then we can debate if it is ahistoric, whether it matters, petition 2by3 to fix and debate HR... I think Sigup did that above, and my in-game results mirror that. Against Combat Divisions, losses are not extreme, and I would consider them in the range of "normal". SigUps tests above show total losses in the 1000 man range vs. combat units, which to me is plausible since 500 bombers are hitting one target. I've seen the same thing, hit an HQ and losses are going to skyrocket. I agree with the others that it's not UNIT BOMB that's a problem, it's hitting HQs and the damage that causes that is a problem.

SigUp -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 8:40:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite I don't know about you, but raising 500 ground attack aircraft is not that easy, and would be 3-4 times what I would use on GA. I would rather split them than go hunting HQ with them. I don't think anyone has shown this is a game breaker in need of HR. Repeating the process with 100 FBs. Guards Armoured Division [image]http://s24.postimg.org/7trmlxm6d/test_guardsarmoured.jpg[/image] VII US Corps [image]http://s27.postimg.org/j0thghm9v/test_viicorps.jpg[/image] 1st US Army [image]http://s23.postimg.org/5edk8ubnv/test_1stusarmy.jpg[/image] 21st Army Group [image]http://s15.postimg.org/3tw0dhruj/test_21starmygroup.jpg[/image] SHAEF [image]http://s10.postimg.org/we0hfzoo9/test_shaef.jpg[/image]

HMSWarspite -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 10:26:53 PM)
OK, that does seem pretty significant. How vulnerable should HQs be? I think there are several factors: Corps HQs should not be less hard than than an infantry division - they don't physically draw attention to themselves like teeth arms (no outgoing fire etc), although they could be more vulnerable to sigint/DF (volume of signals) based detection and localisation. They wont normally dig in properly as such, but camoflage is easier and more thorouh. Higher HQs are maybe less hard (more vulnerable - bigger and so on), but probably not worth worrying about. All HQs should only score for troop density at maybe 10% of their actual strength (if that is a factor)? Actual (RL) air attacks are hard to find in the records - you hear if seniors are hit but not the other HQ staff and functions. Probably the most realistic effect would be a temporary hit on command ability... or a chance of one. Anyone got better ideas?

KWG -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/11/2016 10:55:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite OK, that does seem pretty significant. How vulnerable should HQs be? I think there are several factors: Corps HQs should not be less hard than than an infantry division - they don't physically draw attention to themselves like teeth arms (no outgoing fire etc), although they could be more vulnerable to sigint/DF (volume of signals) based detection and localisation. They wont normally dig in properly as such, but camoflage is easier and more thorouh. Higher HQs are maybe less hard (more vulnerable - bigger and so on), but probably not worth worrying about. All HQs should only score for troop density at maybe 10% of their actual strength (if that is a factor)? Actual (RL) air attacks are hard to find in the records - you hear if seniors are hit but not the other HQ staff and functions. Probably the most realistic effect would be a temporary hit on command ability... or a chance of one. Anyone got better ideas? Ive read 1/3 of German Generals killed were from air attacks. There is the attack on 5th Panzer Army, ULTRA?, that wounded von Schweppenburg. When I was with 2nd Armor we were attached to BN HQ and we were left alone- usually our "own space" in the field. 120mm - "4deuce" mortar. So it would be different for each unit attached to HQ. A unit could be attached but be miles from HQ. But still in the Hex in a combat mode. YET when we fired we brought alot of ATTENTION to our position. In the above example with SHAEF how many troops in the hex? And how do test turns compare to game turns. Ive set up some devastating test turns with both side's Air Forces. In my game against Pelton Ive NOT setup my Air Forces to "GO for the Jugular" Unit Bombing. Ive done unit bombing in a way I think it could have happen while at the same time doing other type of missions. with Pelton's Germans, or any player, being stronger than the Real Germans the Allies are left with few options. And Iam advancing thru France at a HISTORIC rate. With no Luftwaffe in sight except for recon. Bombing units every turn is not a WIN, there is a fine line that has to be walked.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 12:26:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 think that SHAEF is a bit of a special case - a lot of allied players don't really bother moving most of the AA that builds up in that command away so it may be over-stuffed. But there is a wider issue which is that senior command units in WiTW seem to lock up more manpower and stuff than they do in WiTE. Yes, SHAEF is just extremely packed with 180.000 men, so I set up the test again with the Westwall scenario and targeted various HQs. Fog of war is off, recon on days 1-3 then a single 500 bomber strike mainly using fighter bombers (trained as fighters) plus a few level bombers on days 4-7 from 15.000 feet. The FW-190s are equipped with one 250kg bomb. The He-111s with one 1000kg bomb and four 250kg ones. And the Ju-88s with two 500kg bombs. The Allied airforce is set to rest. First VIII British Corps: [image]http://s18.postimg.org/fi19r8idl/test_VIIICorps.jpg[/image] Then 2nd British Army: [image]http://s16.postimg.org/exrr59pb9/test_2nd_BRArmy.jpg[/image] 21st Army Group: [image]http://s23.postimg.org/wrsm19v23/test_21st_Army_Group.jpg[/image] SHAEF: [image]http://s18.postimg.org/wrviv2ccp/test_SHAEF.jpg[/image] VII US Corps: [image]http://s11.postimg.org/v5d5pbair/test_VIICorps.jpg[/image] 1st US Army: [image]http://s15.postimg.org/nuqvrslaj/test_1st_USArmy.jpg[/image] Also to check the effect on regular units, Guards Armoured Division: [image]http://s30.postimg.org/g0pbg9nup/test_Guards_Armoured.jpg[/image] Stack of units (6th Guard Armoured Brigade, 8th Armoured Brigade, 43rd Infantry Division) [image]http://s30.postimg.org/jbiqd9k3l/test_stackunit.jpg[/image] Last but not least, bombing a hex with more than one HQ (XII British, XXX British Corps plus Irene Brigade) [image]http://s21.postimg.org/8kec4opxz/test_stack_HQ.jpg[/image] If anybody wants to try it out, here's the save file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j611m9bvkong0r5/test.sav?dl=0 This issue is 2 games old now. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3869781 Players were forced to make house rules. Both sides could spam it, but seeing Russia had a ton of planes and manpower it was a Russian exploit. Its could not be coded out so players had to make house rules. The Bitter End 1.08.08 Server game Locked HQ Support Full FOW House Rules: No Para drops No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1) No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit As I stated many things are the same in WitW as WitE. Hopefully this age old issue can be coded out here with new air system. Another issue is trucks can be wiped by the 1000's as per one of my SS's HQ+depot+ allot of AA = allot of trucks smoked and trucks seem to = 1 truck 1 man so 9000 trucks = 9-12 Vp's Another weird thing is the more AA in the hex the hvyer the losses in most cases not all but most. spamming 20% attacks over 7 days seems to always = one day of massive loses and it seems not to matter if its a LB/TACB/FB or all of 1 kinda or mixed attacks as per another SS of all LB's Depots seems to be acting as HQ's as per WitE. Best wishes on fixing the old HQ issue.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 12:28:21 AM)
Also Sig is using far more planes then needed to cause massive loses as per SS's 40 planes can give 3000-6000 in loses and you only lose 2-6 planes. This has got to be a bug as how could 40 planes kill 6000 men 250 guns and 100 AFVs + a crap ton of trucks. I am talking dozens of hvy artillery and dozens of Sherman tanks. All this "free killing" = unhistorical combat ratios which is caused by unhistorically weird loses aka 40 planes killing 3000-6000 men.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 2:08:52 AM)
Also thanks Sig for posting data. [&o][&o] [sm=00000947.gif]

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 2:21:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite OK, that does seem pretty significant. How vulnerable should HQs be? I think there are several factors: Corps HQs should not be less hard than than an infantry division - they don't physically draw attention to themselves like teeth arms (no outgoing fire etc), although they could be more vulnerable to sigint/DF (volume of signals) based detection and localisation. They wont normally dig in properly as such, but camoflage is easier and more thorouh. Higher HQs are maybe less hard (more vulnerable - bigger and so on), but probably not worth worrying about. All HQs should only score for troop density at maybe 10% of their actual strength (if that is a f actor)? Actual (RL) air attacks are hard to find in the records - you hear if seniors are hit but not the other HQ staff and functions. Probably the most realistic effect would be a temporary hit on command ability... or a chance of one. Anyone got better ideas? Hmm so how does the combat ratio look now? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3999316 Your not going to get 5 dead Germans from bombing and 1 dead from combat once this is fixed. Historical is 1 dead from bombing and 5 from ground combat. BBBUUUTTT I do agree that ratios could be higher all things not being equal. Also need to look at other issues I addressed. Look at the data first and stop killing the dumb ass (Pelton) first. If he is wrong then kill him and I been wrong more then once. [sm=fighting0043.gif]

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 3:52:43 AM)
[sm=character0272.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: Denniss Is all the data posted with FoW Off ? Strange to see WitW still having vulnerable HQs - most of the assigned units and support squad should actually be spread to multiple units with HQ just acting as virtual force concentration. Wow hi D-man [sm=character0272.gif] Sorry have not bothered reading much got tired of the 1 vs 20 sht and gave up for a few days, then started reading replies. As I have posted I run tests as per morveal informed me in past. run them current ruleset and last ruleset. I did both and with FoW on and off and to be honest I see little difference with it on or off. I know I know BS about code but its almost like all units under the HQ's SU's, divisions ect are targets. Its weird how can bombers hit Shermans not even in HQ's hex? Good luck bro.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 3:54:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KWG quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp Given a working administration and reporting system the own loss reports is more or less accurate, especially if they have control over the battlefield which was the case for the Germans at Kursk. Meanwhile opposing loss reports is nearly always too high and there are a multitude of reasons for it. Tendency to look at it positively, tough to gauge destroyed vs. damaged, chaos of the battlefield etc. The Germans grew suspicious of their own reports regarding destroyed Soviet tanks that OKH decided in December 1942 to cut 50% off the reported losses for a better estimate of the Russian losses. Turns out 50% was a bit too much with overreporting numbering about 40%. German losses at Kursk have been checked from multiple angles by German and foreign historians and they can be seen as more or less accurate. Game losses are low for afv and some of those return , true? as with the troop losses? Can 36 aircraft flying 72 sorties in excellent weather cause 4,849 casualties if the variables and FATE are right? And is that FOW for the Germans in the report above? How does everything Tactical get accounted for? In Normandy it was almost impossible for the Germans to fly recon over Allies until the Ar 234 recon. Yet in game, with Allied fighters stationed in Normandy and with Air Supremacy missions the Germans recon many Allied hexs. I dont see that as impossible as the game engine has enough room to account for a change in tactics being used. What I am talking about is a bug. I can fly 800 planes do 6000 in losses or fly 40 planes and do 5000 in loses. Once I know the combo I can fly 40 planes at night and do 2000 to 4000 in loses. This is an exploit no matter the side. Your fling allied planes so you spam bombing (normal game play)and get a bunch of free kills. now if you now the combo's you fly 1/4 the planes per minion but fly 8x as many missions vs the right hex with right combo of units then spam as most players do and you get 80,000 per turn lose and can do it for 50 turns. We are all just starting to as Sig did 10k one hex figure out this exploit. to be sure as always 2by3 will fix the issue. 2by3 as per their data over the last decade = support their products and get it right in the end. WitE is the best game by far I have ever played and the best AI I have ever played. WitP and WitE speak for themselves. They were not prefect when released but are dam near perfect now. Anything 2by3 releases I buy. They will get WitW right asap. I might have a few personal disagreements with some people, but the team over all gets it right in the end - which is all that matters to me.

loki100 -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 7:12:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite OK, that does seem pretty significant. How vulnerable should HQs be? I think there are several factors: Corps HQs should not be less hard than than an infantry division - they don't physically draw attention to themselves like teeth arms (no outgoing fire etc), although they could be more vulnerable to sigint/DF (volume of signals) based detection and localisation. They wont normally dig in properly as such, but camoflage is easier and more thorouh. Higher HQs are maybe less hard (more vulnerable - bigger and so on), but probably not worth worrying about. All HQs should only score for troop density at maybe 10% of their actual strength (if that is a factor)? Actual (RL) air attacks are hard to find in the records - you hear if seniors are hit but not the other HQ staff and functions. Probably the most realistic effect would be a temporary hit on command ability... or a chance of one. Anyone got better ideas? Think a starting problem is that a 'HQ' in WiTE and WiTW is three distinct things: a) its the command and control, plus presumably things like field hospitals and so on for the formation; b) its a collection of depots and storage points used to keep the combat formations resupplied; c) its the place the game engine notionally locates a variable range of specialist combat formations My instinct is that in reality all these are in slightly different places. I presume that the combat formations are allocated out quite near the front lines (which is what the allocation system then reflects), but the first two can be some distance behind the front. So when you bomb a HQ you are not just trying to kill General X and his merry group of advisers, you may be hitting key depots or conducting a strike on supporting artillery formations. I think this is where the problem rests, in a way what you need when you bomb a HQ is some means to separate out that lot but the game engine treats it as a single block (? - I'm really not sure just trying to set out my understanding of the dynamic). Since it doesn't, most WiTE players have the house rule around not bombing unstacked HQs (subject to the caveats above) but that is much harder to avoid in WiTW as you often set up a box and you will hit any formation in that area

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 9:41:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KWG quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp Given a working administration and reporting system the own loss reports is more or less accurate, especially if they have control over the battlefield which was the case for the Germans at Kursk. Meanwhile opposing loss reports is nearly always too high and there are a multitude of reasons for it. Tendency to look at it positively, tough to gauge destroyed vs. damaged, chaos of the battlefield etc. The Germans grew suspicious of their own reports regarding destroyed Soviet tanks that OKH decided in December 1942 to cut 50% off the reported losses for a better estimate of the Russian losses. Turns out 50% was a bit too much with overreporting numbering about 40%. German losses at Kursk have been checked from multiple angles by German and foreign historians and they can be seen as more or less accurate. Game losses are low for afv and some of those return , true? as with the troop losses? Can 36 aircraft flying 72 sorties in excellent weather cause 4,849 casualties if the variables and FATE are right? And is that FOW for the Germans in the report above? How does everything Tactical get accounted for? In Normandy it was almost impossible for the Germans to fly recon over Allies until the Ar 234 recon. Yet in game, with Allied fighters stationed in Normandy and with Air Supremacy missions the Germans recon many Allied hexs. I dont see that as impossible as the game engine has enough room to account for a change in tactics being used. This is an issue that effect both sides not just one here - lets not get all OMG we have to stop Germany from doing this. This is effects both sides which is why house rules are in effect for both sides WitE The issue is you can set up boxes at 20-30% 5 hexes wide with 1 Air HQ and spam bomb that area - then another with another HQ causing unhistorically high loses aka bad ratio's So any HQ's near the front or in England before invading France and cause massive loses and you can do it at night also to have a higher % at night and only lose 15 planes in a box. As Loki points out players can not house rule this out in WitW it would appear, depots in hexes also appear to inflate loses.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 1:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana Pelton, I am at least partially on your side on this. Your data shows bombing creating way more casualties than it should especially, it would appear, to HQ Units. But I for one would appreciate more data on how your bombers are creating these casualties. I have run some test as well and have not been nearly as effective as you. In particular could you post data showing: 1. How many days per week are your bombers flying these missions? 2. How many bombers do you have in each mission? 3. What are the bomber air groups morale at the end of the week? 4. How much of the damage is being caused by the heavies and how much by the medium bombers and FBs? 5. How many of the casualties are being taken by the HQs as opposed to the combat units? Like Seminole I would really appreciate it if you could post your save just prior to Air execution. I posted all this above between post 1-15 as has Sig in his. Post 13 36 planes they can be LB TacB or FB 1 day 5000 men dead/270 guns. its better if you generate your own save so you can get an idea of how easy it would be to do 100,000 + in loses per turn as WA's. At this point it be possible to do 20-30k as Germany, but because of WA's air cover its much harder to do. You have to hit out of the way areas with a depot and HQ on it vs the AI be much easyer then HvH. Sig was able to do 27k on 1 bombing run. I was tring to do something more do able in a game vs human or AI. Small attacks with 2 hex range over a week. But it be possible to hit and area in Med or even Africa with LB's and do 3-5k. or say a silly invasion easly in northern Italy/southern France ect.

Peltonx -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 2:22:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KWG quote: ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite OK, that does seem pretty significant. How vulnerable should HQs be? I think there are several factors: Corps HQs should not be less hard than than an infantry division - they don't physically draw attention to themselves like teeth arms (no outgoing fire etc), although they could be more vulnerable to sigint/DF (volume of signals) based detection and localisation. They wont normally dig in properly as such, but camoflage is easier and more thorouh. Higher HQs are maybe less hard (more vulnerable - bigger and so on), but probably not worth worrying about. All HQs should only score for troop density at maybe 10% of their actual strength (if that is a factor)? Actual (RL) air attacks are hard to find in the records - you hear if seniors are hit but not the other HQ staff and functions. Probably the most realistic effect would be a temporary hit on command ability... or a chance of one. Anyone got better ideas? Ive read 1/3 of German Generals killed were from air attacks. There is the attack on 5th Panzer Army, ULTRA?, that wounded von Schweppenburg. When I was with 2nd Armor we were attached to BN HQ and we were left alone- usually our "own space" in the field. 120mm - "4deuce" mortar. So it would be different for each unit attached to HQ. A unit could be attached but be miles from HQ. But still in the Hex in a combat mode. YET when we fired we brought alot of ATTENTION to our position. In the above example with SHAEF how many troops in the hex? And how do test turns compare to game turns. Ive set up some devastating test turns with both side's Air Forces. In my game against Pelton Ive NOT setup my Air Forces to "GO for the Jugular" Unit Bombing. Ive done unit bombing in a way I think it could have happen while at the same time doing other type of missions. with Pelton's Germans, or any player, being stronger than the Real Germans the Allies are left with few options. And Iam advancing thru France at a HISTORIC rate. With no Luftwaffe in sight except for recon. Bombing units every turn is not a WIN, there is a fine line that has to be walked. As per our AAR I clearly posted ground combats from several turns and total loses and most were from bombing not unit vs unit combat. Also as Loki points out dead manpower is dead manpower which has to be replaced during logistics so only so many units can get to front which weakens front line units because HQ/depots ect require huge #'s of replasements because of bug/exploit. Also do not forget leadership rolls (this has been over looked until now) someone bombs a Corps HQ for 3k in loses putting it at say 70% TOE that is a -3 to commander rolls as unit is under 90% ToE As with WitE everything snowballs. 1 exploit can have allot of side effects. OK done answering questions for the day, don't need people calling me "trolling" for answering to many questions. This effects 1. Leadership rolls 2. replacements 3. armaments 4. VP's to name a few areas

KWG -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 2:32:30 PM)
quote: This is an issue that effect both sides not just one here - lets not get all OMG we have to stop Germany from doing this. This is effects both sides which is why house rules are in effect for both sides WitE The issue is you can set up boxes at 20-30% 5 hexes wide with 1 Air HQ and spam bomb that area - then another with another HQ causing unhistorically high loses aka bad ratio's So any HQ's near the front or in England before invading France and cause massive loses and you can do it at night also to have a higher % at night and only lose 15 planes in a box. As Loki points out players can not house rule this out in WitW it would appear, depots in hexes also appear to inflate loses. quote: This is an issue that effect both sides not just one here - lets not get all OMG we have to stop Germany from doing this There is no OMG to my statement. Thats not anywhere near my point. "Can 36 aircraft flying 72 sorties in excellent weather cause 4,849 casualties if the variables and FATE are right?" That means any aircraft!!! And FATE means what would be the chances. quote: I dont see that as impossible as the game engine has enough room to account for a change in tactics being used. In many missions? FATE? SKILL? TACTICAL PROWESS? So Iam accused of saying/meaning something that I did not do. Ive been having to justify JUST flying the missions Iam doing, much less the losses. There should be no limit to how many planes a player sends to bomb. As I told you in PM the damage from bombing is a different can of worms, than just being able to fly the missions. If you bomb more than historical you get more than historical losses. Over all, not more in a mission for same number of aircraft bombing. Did you not read my PM to you about what 300-400 P47s can do, forget the heavies. Lots of losses are caused by unit bombing from both sides. [sm=character0272.gif] Show me how I cant fly the number of missions Ive been flying. Regardless of the loses. the Allies SPAMMED the German cities there is no reason the Allies cant switch it to the Germans in the field. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3999316&mpage=6 post 122 post 125 ???? And YES this canbe be GAMED way more than what Ive been doing. As Ive done in my Test missions I can get OUTRAGEOUS with it to the point of having to do nothing but unit bombing.

KWG -> RE: In side the magic box of the air system (1/12/2016 3:02:49 PM)
For the game to be HISTORIC... When the Allies and the Germans go toe to toe at close strengths it will have to be the ALLIED AIR POWER that breaks the Germans.

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