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el cid again -> RE: RHS Level II Micro Update 2.13 (Eratta and 129 enhancements) (5/25/2016 6:07:52 AM)
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These items generally seem likely to be correct. I have great data on weapons, so that isn't a problem.
It is hull size, speed, range and fuel which are harder to get. But often US vessels (see your last point)
were deliberately exaggerated in range - so they can get somewhere (since we cannot load them on ships as IRL)
I suppose. I know the Dutch DD had singles - and so if shown as twins, someone was not paying attention in the
data entry process. The editor has a way to update all ships once I modify a class - so this will be easy
to implement. So thanks. I am quite pleased with the many detail changes to Dutch locations, land units,
aircraft and air units - and to added naval units. It will be nice to have the inherited naval units look right
as well. The big problem with AE is sheer size of the data set: one cannot look at every record even in a decade.
So we look where pointed.
The problem of maneuverability is complicated. One must start with size - and that itself is difficult. While
ALL naval vessels are ALWAYS rated in terms of load displacements, by all navies, most references, and almost all
game data is in terms of either standard displacement (for warships) or gross tonnage (for merchant ships). Both
of these are legal terms ALMOST UNRELATED to ship actual displacement! So one must first figure out how much
the ship displaces? Then one needs to figure out is power and other hull characteristics. Maneuverability is
related to both speed and to ability to turn. [Thus an Alaska is a lousy ship because it cannot turn well, in
spite of being fast. According to her captain. Some battleships of greater size can turn in less than half her
radius.] One can estimate maneuverability by comparing similar hull types, with similar speeds, and similar
displacements, and then adjust for the degree of variation in size, speed, etc. But it is always a guess in the
end - unless one builds a model very carefully and measures.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cardas
quote:
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Yeah, I think it's an interesting mod. I will try to summarize the fixes here but I'm bad at being concise I'm afraid. Please check the Naval OOB thread if you want my reasoning for the values. All my sources are from the internet, so I can't vouch for their quality, remember to take it with a grain of salt.
A few Dutch vessels have exactly 30 in maneuver value which is both improbable and very low. Some of them also have whacky endurance/fuel values and very low cruise speeds (6 knots, only the Dutch vessels and SN Kommuna AS has that low while having a max speed of 10 or more). I haven't found a clear pattern for the maneuver values for really small vessels, they seem inconsistent.
Suggested values, endurance and fuel is pretty much guesses as I didn't find any sources for it (or at least any believable sources). Length and max speed only included for completions sake, but note that some sources puts Ardjoeno at 10 knots max speed rather than 15.
Merapi seems to be identical (or at least functionally identical) to Merbaboe, Soemenep is an alternative class that's used in DBB (coastal minelayer).
(Some of the RHS scenarios put a "RNN" infront of the class name, some don't.)
Length (m) - max speed - cruise speed - fuel - endurance - maneuver - ship name
56 - 12 - 8 - 180 - 3070 - 43 - Small Gvt Mar (Bellatrix)
59,75 - 12 - 8 - 235 - 3550 - 40 - Med Gvt Mar (Fomalhaut)
41,9 - 14 - 8 - 30 - 1200 - 67 - A class
22,25 - 10 - 8 - 15 - 625 - 71 - Merbaboe
31 - 12 - 10 - 33 - 1300 - 71 - Alor
34 - 12 - 10 - 43 - 1700 - 70 - Djember
26,65 - 15 - 12 - 13 - 535 - 73 - Ardjoeno
22,7 - 10 - 8 - 13 - 545 - 71 - Ardjoeno (alternative)
70,5 - 15 - 12 - 275 - 4040 - 51 - Arend
38 - 10 - 8 - 45 - 1500 - 53 - Soemenep
Armament issues:
Admiralen Batch I and Batch II should have two single 120 mm forward and two single 120 aft, not one twin forward and one twin aft.
Secondary weapons on Batch I and Batch II should be switched around. Batch I has Batch II's right now and vice versa. After switching the 4cm Hazemeyer should probably be changed to a 2pdr, they should definitely be singles rather than twins. A more pedantic, but the Brownings and 2pdrs should be half to the left, half to the right, not all center as they are right now.
Most Dutch ships with a the 75mm SA No. 4 AA should have a 7,5cm/40 Krupp or Bofors single purpose gun (naval gun). Some ships with the 7,5 cm Krupp/Bofors gun might have upgraded to British 12 pdrs later. Potentially only Admiralen destroyers, Van Oranje and maybe Soerabaja had DP/AA 75 mm guns (7,5 cm/55 No.7 to No.9 Bofors or Siderius).
Gouvernmentsmarine ships should probably only have 3,7 cm guns, although exactly what gun that is I don't know (3,7 cm/20 Gericke or Hotchkiss revolver guns?) or a single 7,5 cm/40 Krupp/Bofors gun. No AA at all, not even MGs.
Small Gvt Mar: 2 x 3,7 cm
Med Gvt Mar: 1 x 7,5 cm/40
I don't have good details about for the guns as such though (shell weight/range), would need to do more digging for that. The 3,7 cm guns are probably quite useless in game terms though and less effective than even MGs.
Original plans for the P17 motor launch has it with 20 mm guns and not MGs, but that's a minor point. It might have been difficult to get 20 mm guns in the DEI during that time.
The rest is uncertain, but here is potentially some other armament changes:
A Class: no change (2 x 12,7 mm)
Alor: 2 x 37 mm, 2 x 7,7 mm
Merbaboe: 2 x 7,7 mm
Djember: 1 x 12,7 mm
Ardjoeno: 2 x 7,7 mm
Soemenemp: same as DBB (2 x 12,7 mm)
----
Unrelated to the Dutch vessels.
Oddity:
The SC-453 110' and the Admirable (both USN ships) stand out quite a bit due to their very low fuel consumption. The SC-453 gets ~83,3 nm/fuel while the Admirable gets ~60,7 nm/fuel. That's very high, especially considering their size. Even small (20 ton) ships tops out at around 50 nm/fuel of the ships I've looked at in DBB-C. RHS is a bit different in that a few more ships join them, such as SN BO-2 SC with ~66,6 nm/fuel and RTN Bangrachan with 90 nm/fuel. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the general line seems to be that you cap out at around 40 nm/fuel (and at that level you mostly have small boats; Fairmile B, Elco 80ft, LCS, Higgins 78 ft etc.) in the database.
Super minor point:
Thronycroft HDML should probably be spelled Thornycroft HDML
quote:
Yeah, I think it's an interesting mod. I will try to summarize the fixes here but I'm bad at being concise I'm afraid. Please check the Naval OOB thread if you want my reasoning for the values. All my sources are from the internet, so I can't vouch for their quality, remember to take it with a grain of salt. A few Dutch vessels have exactly 30 in maneuver value which is both improbable and very low. Some of them also have whacky endurance/fuel values and very low cruise speeds (6 knots, only the Dutch vessels and SN Kommuna AS has that low while having a max speed of 10 or more). I haven't found a clear pattern for the maneuver values for really small vessels, they seem inconsistent. Suggested values, endurance and fuel is pretty much guesses as I didn't find any sources for it (or at least any believable sources). Length and max speed only included for completions sake, but note that some sources puts Ardjoeno at 10 knots max speed rather than 15. Merapi seems to be identical (or at least functionally identical) to Merbaboe, Soemenep is an alternative class that's used in DBB (coastal minelayer). (Some of the RHS scenarios put a "RNN" infront of the class name, some don't.) Length (m) - max speed - cruise speed - fuel - endurance - maneuver - ship name
56 - 12 - 8 - 180 - 3070 - 43 - Small Gvt Mar (Bellatrix)
59,75 - 12 - 8 - 235 - 3550 - 40 - Med Gvt Mar (Fomalhaut)
41,9 - 14 - 8 - 30 - 1200 - 67 - A class
22,25 - 10 - 8 - 15 - 625 - 71 - Merbaboe
31 - 12 - 10 - 33 - 1300 - 71 - Alor
34 - 12 - 10 - 43 - 1700 - 70 - Djember
26,65 - 15 - 12 - 13 - 535 - 73 - Ardjoeno
22,7 - 10 - 8 - 13 - 545 - 71 - Ardjoeno (alternative)
70,5 - 15 - 12 - 275 - 4040 - 51 - Arend
38 - 10 - 8 - 45 - 1500 - 53 - Soemenep
Armament issues: Admiralen Batch I and Batch II should have two single 120 mm forward and two single 120 aft, not one twin forward and one twin aft. Secondary weapons on Batch I and Batch II should be switched around. Batch I has Batch II's right now and vice versa. After switching the 4cm Hazemeyer should probably be changed to a 2pdr, they should definitely be singles rather than twins. A more pedantic, but the Brownings and 2pdrs should be half to the left, half to the right, not all center as they are right now. Most Dutch ships with a the 75mm SA No. 4 AA should have a 7,5cm/40 Krupp or Bofors single purpose gun (naval gun). Some ships with the 7,5 cm Krupp/Bofors gun might have upgraded to British 12 pdrs later. Potentially only Admiralen destroyers, Van Oranje and maybe Soerabaja had DP/AA 75 mm guns (7,5 cm/55 No.7 to No.9 Bofors or Siderius). Gouvernmentsmarine ships should probably only have 3,7 cm guns, although exactly what gun that is I don't know (3,7 cm/20 Gericke or Hotchkiss revolver guns?) or a single 7,5 cm/40 Krupp/Bofors gun. No AA at all, not even MGs. Small Gvt Mar: 2 x 3,7 cm Med Gvt Mar: 1 x 7,5 cm/40 I don't have good details about for the guns as such though (shell weight/range), would need to do more digging for that. The 3,7 cm guns are probably quite useless in game terms though and less effective than even MGs. Original plans for the P17 motor launch has it with 20 mm guns and not MGs, but that's a minor point. It might have been difficult to get 20 mm guns in the DEI during that time. The rest is uncertain, but here is potentially some other armament changes: A Class: no change (2 x 12,7 mm) Alor: 2 x 37 mm, 2 x 7,7 mm Merbaboe: 2 x 7,7 mm Djember: 1 x 12,7 mm Ardjoeno: 2 x 7,7 mm Soemenemp: same as DBB (2 x 12,7 mm) ---- Unrelated to the Dutch vessels. Oddity: The SC-453 110' and the Admirable (both USN ships) stand out quite a bit due to their very low fuel consumption. The SC-453 gets ~83,3 nm/fuel while the Admirable gets ~60,7 nm/fuel. That's very high, especially considering their size. Even small (20 ton) ships tops out at around 50 nm/fuel of the ships I've looked at in DBB-C. RHS is a bit different in that a few more ships join them, such as SN BO-2 SC with ~66,6 nm/fuel and RTN Bangrachan with 90 nm/fuel. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the general line seems to be that you cap out at around 40 nm/fuel (and at that level you mostly have small boats; Fairmile B, Elco 80ft, LCS, Higgins 78 ft etc.) in the database. Super minor point: Thronycroft HDML should probably be spelled Thornycroft HDML
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