How to deploy and use ATGs? (Full Version)

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John Galt -> How to deploy and use ATGs? (4/25/2001 3:38:00 PM)

How about a short "seminar" on the deployment and use of Anti Tank Guns? Are they worth using while advancing? How do you use your ATGs? John Galt



toundra -> (4/25/2001 4:15:00 PM)

advancing 1 line scouts (jeeps small infantry squads) 2 line, LOTS of infantry 3 line tanks 4 line trucks with AT guns. If your tanks are in troubles, your AT guns will save the day. defending AT guns/Infantry/slow tanks in the middle. Tanks on both wings with scouts (ambush)



Figmo -> (4/25/2001 5:41:00 PM)

From what I've read the Germans used them in advance and the rest mainly used them in defense. I like to use them in the advance. It's not that difficult to get them deployed and then even if they don't get a lot of enemy they will draw fire from your tanks. The AI will shoot at AT guns first. The biggest problem is infantry - if you're fighting up close with not much space between you and the enemy infantry - DON'T move the AT guns up. That's where recon comes in. Oh ya - the AT guns will draw a lot of enemy artillery fire too - but again that takes the pressure of somebody else. Hope this helps, Figmo



Voriax -> (4/25/2001 5:50:00 PM)

Hello When I'm advancing I often don't take the at-guns with me but instead use them to protect rear areas, especially if I already have a group of victory hexes . Also it depends whether I'm playing a canned scenario or not. In canned ones it's often possible that reinforcements/special troops appear in your rear so having at-guns at rear, defending, is often a good idea. In defence I normally put at-guns in such positions that they'll be able to fire at the enemy from short range and from the side (hopefully) :) It's no use to put at-guns on top of the hills or somewhere else where they are visible over long distances..if you do so they'll generally survive one turn as all enemies within range will fire at them after they've opened fire and revealed themselves. Also try to find rough hexes for them, if possible. sometimes I put larger AT-guns in more open positions so that they can slow down enemy's advance and possibly get some kills at long range, but then I usually move such guns in other positions very quickly. Voriax



Larry Holt -> (4/25/2001 6:51:00 PM)

During the advance, you should be using overwatch. AT guns work well overwatching the maneuver element.



Larry Holt -> (4/25/2001 6:57:00 PM)

Oh and another thing. ATGs are much less vulnerable to sudden death than in previous versions. It used to be that a single KV-1 shot or a single barrage could destroy my beloved 88's. Now I've only lost one ATG in several campaigns. However, they can be shot up and take casualities. I put an infantry unit in front or beside them to pop smoke and hide them if things get too hot for them.



Paul Vebber -> (4/25/2001 7:45:00 PM)

IT can still happen, its just much less likely. Thee are three things that can happen to an AT gun, a near miss that usually kills one guy, a direct hit on the crew that the kills 3-8 guys and can take out some of the ammo or a direct hit on the weapon itself destroying it. The first is most common, the 2nd less common and the last rare. AT guns are MUCH less likely to be seen if you wait them tehm to get "incover" before you open fire and only fire 2 or 3 shots per turn. 50mm and less (size 0) AT guns especially. SIze 1 AT guns can usually atay hidden if they only fire once per turn.



11Bravo -> (4/25/2001 10:33:00 PM)

I think its OK to put an ATG on a hill in plain site, if its entrenched. That seems to keep you better concealed and covered. In the King of the Hill scenerio, a single 50mm Pak38 ATG entrenched on the hill can kill the better half of 6 Shermans and 2 Stuarts. I just played both sides and nothing seems to see or kill the gun. My own trials of using Allied ATG against German armor convinced me to deploy the guns in pairs. That way if the armor turns toward one gun, it exposes a rear or flank to the other gun. The trick is finding good terrain that gives you the necessary cover/concealment AND close range with line of site. 11Bravo over,



JTGEN -> (4/25/2001 10:41:00 PM)

I just wonder how the at's can stay hidden. Mines will allways get spotted unless there is only one enemy that can see there and it gets destroyed. If the tankcrew surviwes the at is spotted. Even with 20 hex distances. Or maybe with the 2pdr the german tanks could not spot them from 20hex. I use them anyway. Both to get more even and realistic unit composition, but one can use them in both defence and attac. But I always try to place them to rocks or bolders or rough or attleast forest to get better cover. Boulders are allmoust better than being entrenched.



TheZel66 -> (4/25/2001 11:05:00 PM)

What is overwatch, and how does it get implemented at game time? I could only find one occurance in version 5.0 docs. Did not help either.. Thanks in advance



Paul Vebber -> (4/25/2001 11:19:00 PM)

PLace them in woods or rough and allow them to get "in cover" first. Then they will not get spotted as easily. If you just unload them in the open then they will usually get spotted. medium AT guns (>50mm) are much less likely to remain concealed. If in cover they may become visible but then "get lost" if you hold their fire a turn and reposition inside the hex. I had 50mm's stay hidden darn near a whole game playing online a couple weks ago. Overwatch is implemented by putting your guns in defend status (playing with C2 on) they will then Opfire more frequently and get more "special" opfire opportunities.



panda124c -> (4/25/2001 11:52:00 PM)

In attack use them to cover open areas that the enemy will use to get to your forces. Use ATG on top of hills with infantry in front in defend. Shoot them at long range the father the target the less likly you are to be spotted and the more time you have to zero in on the target. Pick your targets keep the range down to 1 untill the enemy gets close the set it to 5, this will take care of anyone getting two close. When inexperanced don't shoot more than 3 time, to keep them hidden. Have infantry clear off gun sites that overlook open areas then place ATGs there. Place them in buildings looking down roads with infantry in front. Mules are good for putting ATGs into and taking them out of building. Also remember the size makes a big difference in being spotted. The difference between spotting a 37mm (size 0) and a 57mm or 76mm (size 1) is amazing. Use them in cojunction with MGs to keep infantry pinned and to remove infantry from tanks. This decreases your chances of being spotted.



john g -> (4/28/2001 12:27:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by John Galt: How about a short "seminar" on the deployment and use of Anti Tank Guns? Are they worth using while advancing? How do you use your ATGs? John Galt
Like the German army I keep my at guns forward, and concentrated. If I know the enemy is coming at me, I will often move the guns by prolong (old Napoleonic era term), pushing them forward by manpower. A size 0 gun stays size 0 instead of being a size 2 or 3 target while being towed. Most At guns up to the 17pdr-76 mm size will move at least one hex per turn. I have a scarcity of human opponents so I play against the ai, and there the guns can fire their full rof and come out better than the tanks opposing them. An at gun usually will have a one shot advantage against tanks and one pentrating shot will take out most tanks while it normally takes several crew hits to take out an at gun. With the cost differance between at guns and tanks, you can trade 2 at guns per tank and come out even most of the time. That fact coupled with the fact that when using appropriate at guns, it is an even battle when the guns are outnumbered 2-1 you get a 4-1 total advantage when using at guns. This is similar to the rock paper scissor game. At guns have an advantge over tanks, infantry has an advantage over at guns and tanks have an advantage over infantry. You then don't want to let your at guns get shot at by infantry that the at guns can't shoot back at effectively. Give them some sort of mg's to hose down advancing infantry. Let them take care of the enemy tanks thus protecting their supporting troops from tank fire. I will mix at guns and at guns across the battlefield. The at guns are the anvil, the tanks are the hammer. I treat at guns as slow unarmored tanks. It never hurts to pick out your next firing position before the enemy get to where they can sight the location. Sometimes you can limit your shots and stay hidden, more often than not if you blaze away you can reduce the enemy threat fast enough to limit your casualties. thanks, John.



Paul Vebber -> (4/28/2001 2:05:00 AM)

In v5 another tactic I found VERY successful is to team MGs with ATGs at about 2 or 3 to one and use the MGs to keep the tanks buttoned. I had 3 75mm PaKs undetected at 12-18 hex range for about 8 turns playing the AI last night becasue the 6 MGs I had kept the company of T-34s buttoned while I took about half out and the other half ran away. Buttoned tanks are even more TERRIBLE at spotting things more than a couple hundred tards away...and as pbear pointed out they can save your butt if infatry shows up instead of tanks! We have reinstituted the "near death suppresssion" that somehow got turned off back in 4.x something, fail a morale check and you get ~2-5 suppression, double if its in your formation! [ April 27, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



lnp4668 -> (4/28/2001 2:11:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: In v5 another tactic I found VERY successful is to team MGs with ATGs at about 2 or 3 to one and use the MGs to keep the tanks buttoned. I had 3 75mm PaKs undetected at 12-18 hex range for about 8 turns playing the AI last night becasue the 6 MGs I had kept the company of T-34s buttoned while I took about half out and the other half ran away. Buttoned tanks are even more TERRIBLE at spotting things more than a couple hundred tards away...and as pbear pointed out they can save your butt if infatry shows up instead of tanks! We have reinstituted the "near death suppresssion" that somehow got turned off back in 4.x something, fail a morale check and you get ~2-5 suppression, double if its in your formation! [ April 27, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
Paul, could you explain "near death suppression" Don't looks like the manual have anything on it.



11Bravo -> (4/29/2001 6:25:00 AM)

This thread was great. I love the discussion of tactics. I did some more testing, and concur with other's remarks about pairing MG's with ATG's, and size vs. spotting, and getting in cover. I probably wouldn't stack the MG's with the ATG's though because they would all get suppressed by the same artillary fire (I think). I also found that a screen of 1-3 bazooka teams (or equivalents in other OOB's) greatly increases the efficacy of your ambush. To recap my latest experiment, I'm the US in 1944. Killing ground will be a box 12 hex high by 6 hex deep. Two pairs of 57mm ATG's winged by 4 30 cal MG's at the rear of the box. 3 bazooka teams at the front of the box. Ran into the box 2 PkV (Panthers?), 2 PkIV, 2 Stug something or others, and 1 Mech PzGrenadier platoon. The PzGrenadiers actually passed 1 hex south of the box, clever AI. I let the ambush team get "in cover", waited until enemy armor was mostly in the box. Destroyed all armor(3 kills, 2 abandoned), PzGrenadiers fled after armor was destroyed, lost 1 man from a bazooka team. This tactics stuff can be fun! [ April 30, 2001: Message edited by: 11Bravo ]



Redleg -> (4/29/2001 7:33:00 AM)

Unless I missed it, there are two very important AT considerations: Terrain and visibility. Some battlefields just aren't conducive to using AT guns... like night for example.



Paul Vebber -> (4/29/2001 9:14:00 AM)

"near death suppression" is extra suppression you get if you are near (5 hexes I think, maybe 3) of a unit that gets killed. I thought it was in the manual all along? For some reason it has not shown up for a while.



Flashfyre -> (4/29/2001 10:05:00 AM)

Although I'm usually not interested in dragging AT guns with me (I'm a firm believer in manuever tactics), unless I'm defending/delaying, on occasion they come in handy. Particularly to guard a VH area I've captured, while my main force continues to take ground. Too many times I've seen enemy armor show up in my rear (thx, WB! :eek: ) when all my tanks are on the other side of a ridge, blasting the next defense line. :rolleyes: So now, I usually take an AT gun as part of my campaign core forces (changing an MG team if necessary) and drag it behind a halftrack. Most of the time it's nearly useless, but there have been certain situations.....



Flashfyre -> (4/29/2001 10:06:00 AM)

Although I'm usually not interested in dragging AT guns with me (I'm a firm believer in manuever tactics), unless I'm defending/delaying, on occasion they come in handy. Particularly to guard a VH area I've captured, while my main force continues to take ground. Too many times I've seen enemy armor show up in my rear (thx, WB! :eek: ) when all my tanks are on the other side of a ridge, blasting the next defense line. :rolleyes: So now, I usually take an AT gun as part of my campaign core forces (changing an MG team if necessary) and drag it behind a halftrack. Most of the time it's nearly useless, but there have been certain situations.....



John Galt -> (4/30/2001 6:41:00 AM)

How do you drag an AT behind a halftrack? When I try to load one it seems the game tries to load it like infantry and I get a message that it is too heavy.



Figmo -> (4/30/2001 8:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by John Galt: How do you drag an AT behind a halftrack? When I try to load one it seems the game tries to load it like infantry and I get a message that it is too heavy.
75mm and below can be towed by a half-track. For the larger ones including my beloved 88mm AT Guns I usually get a Prime Mover - SdKz-7 - it's better than a heavy truck because it has some protection and can survive a few shots. Figmo



Redleg -> (4/30/2001 11:13:00 AM)

Each vehicle has a carry capacity. Each weapon has a carry cost. So if I have something with a carry cost of 206, I must find a vehicle with a carry capacity of at least 206 to load it.



Paul Vebber -> (4/30/2001 12:02:00 PM)

And the limiting factor is usually not haveing enough room for the crew, since you can't split them up!



nimu -> (4/30/2001 3:17:00 PM)

The lack of space for the crew members doesn't seem to be a problem for me!I'm playing a scen.were my 4 17 pdr killers are mounted on Hippo trucks.It says there are no rooms for everybody,but when i confirm the loading proces and then i unload them i find that the 6 people of rhe crew are still there on the ATG.Is it a bug?



Charles2222 -> (4/30/2001 8:33:00 PM)

I think the problem is a lot of us haven't figured out the transport numbering system yet, and until I was browsing the recent manual I didn't know there was a way. I was confounded that I could get German HTs to tow, but it seemed the US HTs wouldn't do it. I was always thinking that everything was given a 'weight' so that if a transport could carry 206, it could carry 2 103s, etc. I don't totally understand it yet, but if the transport is a 206, for example, the first digit stands for one thing or another, while the following 2 digits stand for men I think. If a unit has a single digit for carrying, it's always referring to men.



Larry Holt -> (4/30/2001 11:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: ... We have reinstituted the "near death suppresssion" that somehow got turned off back in 4.x something, fail a morale check and you get ~2-5 suppression, double if its in your formation! [ April 27, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
Great, I was wondering where it went and meant to ask about it. Good decision to add it back in. Does lose of the unit leader incur any penalty beyond the loss of a regular unit?



nimu -> (4/30/2001 11:06:00 PM)

Charles,I think you're correct in saying that The dirst digit stands for the kind of unit to load in(should be 0-only men,1-light art,-2heavy art),but it is not ,i think,totally clear about the second two digits.I mean,not your expl.,but the system is not so clear.Hope they'll find a better way to describe that. regards



TheChin -> (4/30/2001 11:21:00 PM)

I'm 95% sure that the second two numbers are the capacity of men. I.E. 106 is light gun and 6 men, 212 is heavy gun and twelve men.



Paul Vebber -> (5/1/2001 12:16:00 AM)

re near death suppression, if you lose a "0" unit it takes until your next turn for the next in line to take charge, so you can end up "stuck" for a turn in some circumstances. The transport rating system is as follows: They come in 3 sizes, 0XX (or just XX), 1XX, and 2XX. the first digit is the weight, 0 or blank is man portable, 1= light/medium gun, 2= heavy gun. The XX is the number of men is the standard crew. Transports are rated teh same way, 1XX or 2XX means it can the corresponding size gun, while the XX is nmber of troops it can carry. So a 106 size gun can not be carried by a 105 capacity unit, there is no leaving the extra crewman behind.



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