Division-brigade (Full Version)

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nimu -> Division-brigade (4/25/2001 4:58:00 PM)

I've been trying since 25 days to create four good Arnhem scenarios to simulate the following days of war:17-19-21-24 of September '44.The maps seems to be good(I tried to follow stritcly the original maps).Now the point is:how to recreate the historically troops balancing between british an germans?I need to rappresentate the 1st Airbone div. and 2 SS armored div(9th and 10th).When i'm in the buying screen,how many airb.co. and how many ss.mech.co. do i gotta buy to be realistic? What's the meaning of co.?is it company?If so,there are platoons,companies,reggiments,battallions,brigades,divisions,corps,armies......WHICH IS THE RIGHT ORDER???????PLEASE help me i have not been in the army yet!!!!



murx -> (4/25/2001 10:06:00 PM)

Sure someone can post good links on the OOBs for 'Operation Marketgarden' ... Just to clarify a bit, Squad (Sq)- (or Halfsquad/Team) the usual single unit in SPwaw, like AT-teams, MGs - even tank(crews) are a squad. Platoon (Plt) - 3-6 Squads plus support teams like AT teams, MG etc. Company (Cp) - usually consists of several Platoons plus the 'Kompaniefuehrung' - CO unit and sometimes attached support units like mortars (sometimes these units make up an own 'platoon', in Germany nowadays TOE display one PzMortar 120mm per platoon but infact all of these make up an own platoon in the 'inofficial' TOE within the company...) Bataillon (Btl) - usually 1.Cp is Stabskompanie (all non combat units like repair, first aid, radio, transport, ammo) and 4 to 5 'real' combat units. A Bataillon can have higher echolon units attached (like the Regimental ATCp) Now it gets confusing Either 3-4 Bt make up a Brigade or a Regiment (Rg) where Brigades (Brg) (on the German side) are more often like small Combat Teams with a diversity of attached support Cps and Regiments are usually part of a Division (Div) (again 3-4 Rg. per Division) and have little to no attached units but have their support from the Divisional headquarters. The Division itself has normally a Pionier Btl, an Artillery Rg, a Field Reserve Btl, and either a AT Cp or Btl - Recon units are attached sometimes too together with (in)famous Nebelwerfer. The next higher units are Corps which have from a few 4 Divisions up to more then 20 of these and can incorporate air units as well. Artillery (due to traditions ???) has sometimes other names like Battery and tend to have much less guns per unit compared to say tank units. A tank Rg can have like 300 tanks but just 24 artillery guns will be enough for an artillery Rg... but artillery - who needs them anyway :) I recommend the game PANZER CAMPAIGNS 2: NORMANDY '44 (C) HPS SIMULATIONS which has a very detailed, well researched OOB on the invasion in the Normandie. Infact it is the largest, deepest OOB I ever seen - it doesn't go as deep as to describe each soldiers weapons leave alone the exact numbers of soldiers within the units but still doesn't simplify too much. murx [ April 25, 2001: Message edited by: murx ]



Wild Bill -> (4/26/2001 12:38:00 PM)

There is a general OOB (Order of battle) and TOE (Table of Equipment)in Scott Grasses files that come with SPWAW. You might want to read through it to get some general ideas. For details on Market Garden, there is no better book for the price than Osprey's Campaign Series #24, Arnhem 1944 (Operation Market Garden) by Stephen Badsey. You'll find about everything you need here including some good 3-D maps. Wild Bill



Mike Rothery -> (4/26/2001 1:29:00 PM)

There are a few things you need to know up front about reading TO&E's from different countries. Under the British system a squad is called a section. And in some Corps a platoon is called a troop, and a company called a squadron. Regiment means different things to different people. In the British system, which is copied by a lot of ther countries, regiments are not a combat formation. They are the administrative centres from which battalions are formed. So you have for example, the Seventh Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers, or 7KOSB for short, which was an infantry battalion raised by the KOSB Regiment at its base in Berwick on Tweed in the UK. Now the 7KOSB was attached to the First Airlanding Brigade for the Arnhem operation. So the Brigade was a combat formation but the Regiment was not. A brigade in the British system is commanded by a Brigadier (a one star general), and the 7KOSB was commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col. Paton-Reid IIRC). Full Colonels (bird colonel equiv.) do not normally hold combat commands in the British system, they hold staff or administrative positions only. It was possible for a British Brigade to have more than one Battalion from the same Regiment as was the case with the 51st Highland Division. Brigades almost always contained supporting troops as integral parts of the unit,ie. engineers, armour, artillery etc. which is why they had to be commanded by a General officer. The Germans and US had infantry regiments that were combat formations, with the battalions being raised as part of that regiment. The Regimental commanders were colonels, in the US system they were full or bird colonels. Supporting arms were assigned to the regiment but were not integral, so the there was a difference in philosphy here. Battalions and companies are a lot easier to compare as they were closer in structure and role. Hope this helps. Mike R



nimu -> (4/26/2001 2:51:00 PM)

Well,......Murx,Wild Bill and Mike....what to say....THANKS so much!You've been really clear and now things about the administrative divisions of roles seems to be understood.You know what?The more i attempt at this forum the more i'm surprised about how many people know so good everything concerning with the military world.....but that's another story.... Bill,i'll find that book.It interests me so much.There's also a very good web site about that subject:www.marketgarden.com,it has plenty of pictures,films,maps and different interesting links See u Thanks guys!!!



Massimo -> (4/27/2001 3:00:00 AM)

Hello Urqhart, there is an italian version of Osprey's Market Garden Operation book from Edizioni del Prado. Last year Del Prado has printed 100 books of Osprey, with the name Eserciti e Battaglie: Market Garden was the number 38 brobably you can order this at GD Service S.r.l. tel/fax 02/9513593 dal luned́ al venerd́ dalle 11 alle 12. Se non lo trovi te lo posso prestare, l'anno scorso costava 11.000 lire un terzo del prezzo degli Osprey originali in lingua inglese, un vero affare. La versione italiana era identica a quella inglese. Ciao



Mikimoto -> (4/27/2001 3:16:00 AM)

Hello Hurquhart. In Spain Ediciones del Prado published "Arnhem 1944" from Stephen Basey translated to spanish in 1994. There is also another Osprey book named "the paras british airborne forces 1940-1984" by Gregor Ferguson. Hope all the collection translated to spanish will be translated to italian. Osprey books are great!!! Saludos. Latin power. ;)



panda124c -> (4/27/2001 4:02:00 AM)

Urquhart: Doing a search on Operation Market Garden showed this site http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html Perhaps it will be of some use, it looks good for British and German units involved in the battle. Good luck.



Wild Bill -> (4/27/2001 7:18:00 AM)

We're always ready to help. That is what makes this forum very unique :D Wild Bill



murx -> (4/27/2001 7:40:00 AM)

WB - yep, unlike those of the big companies - hehe, those boards slowly die after the last one of the stupid 'consumers' (the way they are called by large companies) looses his hope on getting useful help or info when or even IF they gonna patch the crap they released :) murx



nimu -> (4/27/2001 7:56:00 AM)

You guys are unique!I thank u all for the speedy answers!!!!Tomorrow il try to check those books you suggested me by Del Prado edition in my favourite bookshop....but....,Massimo,isn't del prado something connected to newspapers sellres rather than bookshops?????Anyway i'll chack out and let u know.It's not so easy to find good books abot ww2 in italian lenguage.Libraries here are full of those books about shoà(is this wrtten correctly?),hitler's charachter-life and stuff dealing with nazism,but nothing about operations,equippement,strategy ect...(not books for the masses i gotta say!!) I thank u all another time and i'll make u know abot my tomorrow book-search. PS:I'm sure you'll know B.H.Liddell Hart.I'm reading his books (this is my 4th"the other side of the hill").What d'u think about him.I'm not so thought in this subject but i love his way of watching war and his tactical point of view!! See u :D :D :D :cool:



nimu -> (4/27/2001 5:42:00 PM)

To MAssimo,as i thought Del Prado distributes its pubblications only trough newspapers sellers.There is nothing about Osprey in the bookshops.I asked to some newspapers sellers(edicole!!) and they told me that "grandi battaglie" is a kind of Military Encyclopedia pubblished monthly,while they didn't know anything about books.Probably they're linked to the encyclopedia.I guess.Anyway,i ordered one copy of that.Do u have any more informations to give me about that??? Thanks a lot



Massimo -> (4/27/2001 10:47:00 PM)

Hello Urqhart, you are correct, actually you can find del Prado books( they are like original Osprey about 90 pages, scusa l'italiano, ma per capirci meglio, non si tratta di fascicoli da rilegare ma di veri e propri libri ciascuno a sè stante) only to newspapers sellers or by fax, now del Prado is publishing the aircraft serie, I think that Eserciti e Battaglie is out of the market and you can buy them only by fax. In my town there is a big toys seller (Dreoni Giocattoli)with almoust every Osprey books, but they are in english and very expensive, 30.000/40.000 lire each. Ciao (che fatica esprimersi in inglese)



nimu -> (4/27/2001 10:58:00 PM)

Ok Massimo,I got it. I'll try to use the tel number u gave me in your last post if my "edicolante" won't get 'em for me.I'd prefer to find them in italian 'cause it's really frustrating to read something with a vocabulary in the other hand!!!I'll let u know.Ps:non me ne parlare dell'inglese!!!mille giri di parole per esprimere un concetto!!!!!!!!Ciao e grazie per la solerzia!



Massimo -> (4/27/2001 11:02:00 PM)

Ciao Urqhart, The correctly name of the serie is "Eserciti e battaglie" Grandi battaglie is another thing and it is not very good like Osprey books, you can search another interesting serie at newspaper sellers its name is Soldati e battaglie della seconda guerra mondiale by Hobby and work publishing, there are two interesting case editrici (non mi ricordo come si dice in inglese) Mursia and Ermanno Albertelli Editore, the first is specialized in ww2 history the second is more on ww2 technology. ciao



Fredde -> (4/28/2001 12:34:00 AM)

Hello Urquhart. It is a very nice subject you have chosen to study, and a very suiting nickname for it ;). I would love to see some good scenarios made for Market Garden. I've seen some out there already.. but you can find plenty of areas to cover with your scenarios. Two other books you might want to check out: Cornelius Ryan, "A Bridge Too Far" Cornelis Bauer, "The Battle of Arnhem" Bauers book is written based on information from LtCol Boeree who has spent plenty of time studying the battle. It also contains some very nice aerial pictures. I'm not sure how easy it is to get though.



nimu -> (4/28/2001 12:44:00 AM)

Fredde,i've already read "a bridge too far and i foud it very good but there aren't a lot of maps,so it's quite difficul to use it to design a scenario.For the other one i'll take a look in the next few days(I got so many books to look for!!!!).Thanks a lot for your help. best regards ;)



phaelos -> (4/28/2001 3:35:00 AM)

Here's my question about the army breakup; What is the order of rank (i.e. sargent, lieutenant, major, etc.) in the army? (What about the other two, Navy and AF?) and what does each rank entitle? finnaly: When counting the men in any formation, are the CO's counted as a soldier or seperatly?



Billy Yank -> (5/1/2001 5:05:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alekseyev: Here's my question about the army breakup; What is the order of rank (i.e. sargent, lieutenant, major, etc.) in the army? (What about the other two, Navy and AF?) and what does each rank entitle?
In WWII, the Air Force was part of the Army, so their ranks are the same. I'm much more sure about the modern ranks than I am about the WWII ranks, but I think I can handle the Army. Someone else will have to do the Navy and the modern Air Force. Soldiers - WWII Private Private First Class Soldiers - Modern Private Private E2 Private First Class Specialist I'm pretty sure there were only two pay-grades for soldiers in WWII, but I could be wrong. Non Commissioned Officers Corporal << Sergeant <<< Staff Sergeant <<<) Platoon Sergeant <<<)) Master Sergeant <<<))) First Sergeant Sergeant Major Command Sergeant Major Corporals lead fire teams. Sergeants and Staff Sergeants lead squads. Staff Sergeants and Platoon Sergeants are the senior NCO of a platoon. First Sergeant is the senior NCO in a company and the Master Sergeant is the same rank in a staff position. Command Sergeant Major is the senior NCO in a Battalion or higher unit, Sergeant Major is the same rank in a staff position (usually Division or higher). In modern times we also have the position of Sergeant Major of the Army, the senior NCO of the whole service. I'm not completely sure about the Sergeant Major-Command Sergeant Major ranks during WWII, but I think they were the same. Officers 2nd Lieutenant - Platoon Leader 1st Lieutenant - Company Executive Officer Captain - Company Commander Major - Battalion XO Lieutenant Colonel - Battalion CO Colonel - Brigade/Regiment CO The jobs listed are the command positions for these ranks. There's also a progression of staff jobs. Usually an officer moves from command to staff and back again as he is promoted. General Officers Brigadier General - Assistant Division Commander Major General - Division CG Lieutenant General - Corps CG General - Army or Army Group CG During WWII there was a five-star rank called General of the Army, but that was only used in special circumstances.
quote:

finnaly: When counting the men in any formation, are the CO's counted as a soldier or seperatly?
Usually they are counted. [ May 03, 2001: Message edited by: Billy Yank ]



Flashfyre -> (5/3/2001 10:05:00 AM)

Although this is a ground warfare game, I'll give you the Navy rank equivalents (since you asked, Alekseyev :D ) E-1: Seaman Recruit (SR) E-2: Seaman Apprentice (SA) E-3: Seaman (SN) E-4: Petty Officer Third Class (PO3) E-5: Petty Officer Second Class (PO2) E-6: Petty Officer First Class (PO1) E-7: Chief Petty Officer (CPO) E-8: Senior Chief Petty Officer (SCPO) E-9: Master Chief Petty Officer (MCPO) * There is also one Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON) Enlisted ranks are associated with ratings; these are job classifications, or MOSs. Examples include: Gunner's Mate First (GM1), Personnelman Third (PN3), Machinist's Mate Chief (MMC), etc. The first two letters are the rating, the last the rank. O-1: Ensign (ENS) O-2: Lieutenant Junior Grade (LTJG) O-3: Lieutenant (LT) O-4: Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) O-5: Commander (CDR) O-6: Captain (CAPT) O-7: Rear Admiral (lower half) (RDML) O-8: Rear Admiral (upper half) (RADM) O-9: Vice Admiral (VADM) O-10: Admiral (ADM) O-11: Fleet Admiral (FADM) [wartime only] W-1: Warrant Officer (WO1) [no longer used] W-2: Chief Warrant Officer (CWO2) W-3: Chief Warrant Officer (CWO3) W-4: Chief Warrant Officer (CWO4) Note: The commanding officer of any vessel, regardless of size, is always called Captain. The actual rank of the officer is not used. So, a Commander in charge of a destroyer, a Lieutenant commanding a minesweeper, or an Ensign in command of a landing craft are all called "Captain" by the crews.



murx -> (5/3/2001 7:22:00 PM)

To make the list more complete .. how about the German ranks :) I'll try (from memory) ... Soldaten: Schuetze/Grenadier/Panzerschuetze/Jaeger etc (Private, einfacher Soldat) Gefreiter Obergefreiter Hauptgefreiter Stabsgefreiter (not in WW2) Unteroffiziere: Unteroffizier Stabsunteroffizier Unteroffiziere mit Porteaupais: Feldwebel Oberfeldwebel Hauptfeldwebel Stabsfeldwebel (not in WW2) Oberstabsfeldwebel (not in WW2) Fahnenjunker (same as Unteroffizier, but on his carrer for a full officer position) Faehnrich (same as Feldwebel, but on his carrer for a full officer position) Oberfaehnrich (same as Oberfeldwebel or Hauptfeldwebel, ...) Offiziere: Leutnant Oberleutnant Hauptmann Stabshauptmann (not in WW2) Major Oberstleutnant Oberst Generaele: Brigadegeneral Generalmajor Generalleutnant General murx



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