Mines (Full Version)

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Gamara -> Mines (4/3/2003 2:24:57 AM)

hey i have a couple newbie questions. I have read this forum and the help texts as well as the manual. I was wondering if since mines are a normal component of the Argonaught, yep i found it, can it replenish them at any port? Also the DMS ships, can they lay mines or are they only sweepers? I have tried to set them on Mine laying ops, with retirement allowed and they do not seem to be dropping any mines . I am using Version 2.30.

Version 2.30 seems to have really reduced the ability of mine fields. I have been trying to stop the Tokyo express, witht eh use of Mines and subs. Well The destroyer escorts for teh BB's have been detecting and clearing paths for the mines. They are not Mine sweepers or on a mine mission they are part of the bombardment force. how in the world can Ships traveling at 25+ knots detect mines at night? also i have subs in all of teh deep water holes along teh slot and have yet to take a shot at the BB's. Now it would seem that if the DD's slow to clear teh mines for the BB's then that should increase the ability for the Subs yes? also my subs appear to be cowards. unescorted transports move with impunity through the patrol zones, stop in them, have a beach party and bar-b-q, and then leave with my subs never firing a shot. Even when the JP owned Lunga my two subs at teh port would not fire on teh transports whe it was a beach hex. Anyway any ideas on howto increase the subs aggresiveness? Would replacing the Captains help?
anyway thanks in advance for all of eh help as well as all of it in this forum.



Feinder -> (4/3/2003 3:45:00 AM)

hey i have a couple newbie questions. I have read this forum and the help texts as well as the manual. I was wondering if since mines are a normal component of the Argonaught, yep i found it, can it replenish them at any port?
Nope. ANY minelaying unit can only replentish mines at either Brisbane, Noumea, or Truk.


Also the DMS ships, can they lay mines or are they only sweepers?
They are (high speed mineSWEEPERS). You cannot attach a MSW unit to a bombardment or surface group, but you CAN attach a DMS. Wonderful things. Just be wary of their range, they tend to run out of fuel quickly.


I have tried to set them on Mine laying ops, with retirement allowed and they do not seem to be dropping any mines . I am using Version 2.30.
The only vessals able to lay mines are DM, ML, and Subs.

Version 2.30 seems to have really reduced the ability of mine fields. I have been trying to stop the Tokyo express, witht eh use of Mines and subs. Well The destroyer escorts for teh BB's have been detecting and clearing paths for the mines. They are not Mine sweepers or on a mine mission they are part of the bombardment force. how in the world can Ships traveling at 25+ knots detect mines at night?
It's not actually from 2.3, but from about 2.1. Players were going a little nutts with mines, and would annialate the enemy fleet (particularly the AI) in a few months by mining the crap out of everything. DDs were given the limited ability to kill mines. The chance of a MSW of actually hitting a mine was damatically reduced. Basically, putting a MSW or DMS with your TF will make it (almost) impervious to mines. DDs can clear mines, but they can and will hit them. Trust me on that. The appearent invulnerability of MSW and DMS to mines, has caused alot of players to squawk, but I think it does bring mines more into their historical context. The were annoyances, and were able to get strikes when an unwary opponent first encountered the minefield. In UV, I believe their scope is correct. They're going to cripple a few ships, and are good for static defense, but they're not game breakers. Your assertions about fast-moving bombardment TFs are indeed correct, but it has been my experience that mines -DO- work quite well against IJN bombardment TFs, DDs included or not. Yes, DDs do destroy mines, but they also do hit them occasionally (and it makes for a VERY big mess). These are just my opinions on mines, many players would disagree, and seem to want to the win the campaign with minelayers.

Also i have subs in all of teh deep water holes along teh slot and have yet to take a shot at the BB's. Now it would seem that if the DD's slow to clear teh mines for the BB's then that should increase the ability for the Subs yes?
I don't think the speed of the target is considered when the sub "rolls" to engage (a 33% chance as I recall). However, I'd expect that the speed of the target (presumed cruising speed) is considered when the shot is taken. I don't know if the speed is modified if a ship is traversing a minefield. Frankly, I don't think it is (altho it probably should be).

also my subs appear to be cowards. unescorted transports move with impunity through the patrol zones, stop in them, have a beach party and bar-b-q, and then leave with my subs never firing a shot. Even when the JP owned Lunga my two subs at teh port would not fire on teh transports whe it was a beach hex. Anyway any ideas on howto increase the subs aggresiveness? Would replacing the Captains help?
Not really. You can't replace the captains on subs (I fairly certain). I believe that a subs system damage may affect it's ability to engage, but I don't know. And check your subs ammo levels. No fish = No shot. Other than that. Don't know.


anyway thanks in advance for all of eh help as well as all of it in this forum.
You're welcome.

:^)
-F-



Gamara -> (4/3/2003 3:53:20 AM)

thanks for the reply. it is not what I wanted to here :p But, it helps. As for teh Subs, they do have plenty of fish, just no one taking shots. I will continue to mine the crap out of the slot and see if increasing the mine field I hae inthe shallows just above Villa from only 120 mines, minus a few the DD's have found to 150 or 180 will help. Also on subs, if you are taking the chance of putting htem in Shallow water, does thier encounter chance increase with a decrease in patrolable aera? I mean if I have a sub patroling a hex that is 2/3 island, shouldn't my encounter chance go up?

One other thing, If a MSW is clearing a mine field in an adjacent hex, i.e. mine fild next to buin and teh MSW at shortland is clearing it from Shortland, will a sub in teh mine field hex ever attack the MSW? I ask because i am using a forum sugestion of laying mine fields and waiting for teh MSW's to clear them and pick them off. So far no luck, but then again out of my 15 subs on patrol in good locations i have fired 3 torpedoes in teh 2 months of teh game. Oh playing Scen 19 against AI, as I am trying to learn this game.



Feinder -> (4/3/2003 4:19:15 AM)

thanks for the reply. it is not what I wanted to here But, it helps. As for teh Subs, they do have plenty of fish, just no one taking shots. I will continue to mine the crap out of the slot and see if increasing the mine field I hae inthe shallows just above Villa from only 120 mines, minus a few the DD's have found to 150 or 180 will help.
Remember that the ammo for mines, like all weapons in UV, represent SALVOs, not just invididual rounds. A normal sub loaded up with mines, isn't just laying 3 mines, he's probably layng a salvo of 3 mines x 4 tubes = 12 mines. Not positive tho. There's also an arguement that ships shouldn't be able to lay an entire minefield in 1 turn (day). While the statement is true, it doesn't really affect gameplay. "Suspension of disbelief" is a wonderful thing.

Also on subs, if you are taking the chance of putting htem in Shallow water, does thier encounter chance increase with a decrease in patrolable aera? I mean if I have a sub patroling a hex that is 2/3 island, shouldn't my encounter chance go up?
I seriously doubt it. Shallow water means you can't dive as far, and are more likely to get pasted by escorts. But the game presumes that a subs (and mines for that matter), are patroling in the most likely shipping lanes already.

One other thing, If a MSW is clearing a mine field in an adjacent hex, i.e. mine fild next to buin and teh MSW at shortland is clearing it from Shortland, will a sub in teh mine field hex ever attack the MSW? I ask because i am using a forum sugestion of laying mine fields and waiting for teh MSW's to clear them and pick them off. So far no luck, but then again out of my 15 subs on patrol in good locations i have fired 3 torpedoes in teh 2 months of teh game. Oh playing Scen 19 against AI, as I am trying to learn this game.
To clear a minefield, you must actually enter the hex of the minefield. So, drop your minefield, THEN move a sub into the hex. Wait for the enemy MSWs or TF to enter the hex (with your minefield AND sub), and start shooting.

Be advised that you should never have friendly units moving thru your own minefield, in the same turn in which is it being layed. I've (appearently) had 3 ships damaged by my own minefield this way. I certainly won't let it happen again.

-F-



Gamara -> (4/3/2003 4:27:02 AM)

Well, the trouble is the MSW is not entering the mined hex, it is doing it from the adjacent hex which is Shortland. I understand teh Subs thing, I am using the Argonaut to mine the slot. I have been careful to either mine a hex with a sub alread in it. Instead of traversing it with mines in the hex. Anotehr question since you are beinghelpful, does stacking subs in a hex do any good? Well, I will keep at it, just man seems that mines are more of a hindrence to myself than teh AI. Oh on the Bombardment group that comes nightly. THey seem to enter teh Lunga hex and move rightout, they have done it 11 times so far, and go right through teh Extensive defensive mine field I have. No one has hit anything yet. On a positive note, I have found that Ap's versus 80+ SBD's and 40 + Devastaors are not much of a fight but do give me lots of experience. Oh any hopes of getting Air dropped mines for eh B-24's and Catalinas?



Feinder -> (4/3/2003 4:49:43 AM)

Well, the trouble is the MSW is not entering the mined hex, it is doing it from the adjacent hex which is Shortland.
Hm. Not sure about that. Try putting it with another ship like a DD, set it as a "Transport TF" (not Mine Warefare), and put it's destination as the hex with "Patrol/Do not retire."

I understand teh Subs thing, I am using the Argonaut to mine the slot. I have been careful to either mine a hex with a sub alread in it. Instead of traversing it with mines in the hex.
You can traverse a hex with your own mines fairly safely. And subs seem esp adverse to hitting ANY mines (I've never had my own subs hit a friednly OR enemy minefield).


Anotehr question since you are beinghelpful, does stacking subs in a hex do any good?
Check the notes on the last patch. Putting more than 1 sun in a TF (wolfpack) is NOT helpful. I believe your chance of deting and enemy remains the same (not positive tho), but YOUR chances of BEING detected are increased. USN subs didn't do this operationally (esp 1942-1943). I don't remember the effect (or lack thereof) of putting several subs (separate TFs) in the same hex. I generally don't do it, but it's worth looking up. There should be release notes (what they changed in the patch), somewhere on the Matrix Downloads page.

Well, I will keep at it, just man seems that mines are more of a hindrence to myself than teh AI. Oh on the Bombardment group that comes nightly. THey seem to enter teh Lunga hex and move rightout, they have done it 11 times so far, and go right through teh Extensive defensive mine field I have. No one has hit anything yet.
IJN Bombardment TFs will give you headaches. Defense = Mines + Subs + PT Boats + More Mines + More Subs + More PT boats

On a positive note, I have found that Ap's versus 80+ SBD's and 40 + Devastaors are not much of a fight but do give me lots of experience. Oh any hopes of getting Air dropped mines for eh B-24's and Catalinas?
While historical, I honestly doubt it. A new mission to the mission screen would likely be a lot of work. At this point, Matrix seems to be in the "tweak" phase for UV, so that most of their developent resources can be used for WitP (which uses an expanded version of the UV engine).

-F-



Gamara -> (4/3/2003 5:13:23 AM)

I think you misunderstood my MSW question Feinder. I appreciate your help so far btw. The MSW is IJN, I have laid a Mine field ajacent to IJNS base at Shortland. the MSW is at Shortland and is detecting and sweepng the mine field while staying in the Shortlands hex. My sub is in the hex with the mine field. Is ther any hope of shooting the MSW or is it a "game" issue that it is safe to remove mnes without a chance of a lurking Sub shooting you? The Port is a Size 6 so I can't even put a sub in the hex with the MSW and kill it. Just wondering. I will try and get some PT's into lunga but i do not think they are avail yet. Anyway, I appreciate your input.



SoulBlazer -> (4/3/2003 5:26:18 AM)

I got a related question -- I've got these Japanese ML's in a TF but don't know how to actually LAY the mines. Help? :confused:



Feinder -> (4/3/2003 5:27:10 AM)

Oh. It's an enemy MSW. Frankly, I don't know how he's clearing the field a hex away. Perhaps he's moving into the hex each turn, sweeping a little, and then returning to port, and your sub captain just happens to suck.

True tho, you can't shoot at an enemy ship in a port that is Size 3 or greater, while it is IN port (disbanded) or docked (loading/unloading). You should be able to shoot at him as he moves into and out of the hex tho.

If you really want to kill the bugger, try a different sub, and/or try putting one in both Shortland and Buin. But then again, 2 subs is an awful lot of resources just to try and kill one stupid MSW.

(*checks wall clock *)

Time to go home yet?
-F-



Gamara -> (4/3/2003 5:40:24 AM)

to lay mines you ned to tell the ML's to Retire, if you ahve them set to patrol they try to clear mines.

Yeah according to the 2.3 info MSW's will clear adjacent hexs. It is most vexing. As for replacing the sub, I do not think it will make any differnce since apparently allof my Sub Skippers Suck.

as for time to go home yet? I got 2 more hours. I appreciate the replies. Keep them coming. well it is only mid June and I am hping to take out his MSW ability early so i can have a chance of using mines to secure the Lunga aera ad get supplies in there. As it is now, the BB running down teh Slot that I cannot seem to hit is preventing my landing more supplies and engineers at Lunga. The fact that I lost my Carriers alrady, oops, means I can't run them in to cover Rabuls air groups. howeer teh Sara is due to arive in 2 days.

Once I get a chance to get in there I am ready having turned both Neva and Luganville into Massive supply depots, both are 3 pt/4af. both have over 70K fuel and 70K supplies along with bunches of engineering units and what few fighters I have. Lugan ville is building slow, as i am having to airlift supplies in and have only 1 eng group withno vehicles. It is a 3pt/2 af. Once I get it up to a 4 and an aviation supportgroup in there, Shortland and the Slot wil be mine I think. Between teh subs, mines and the nearly 100 medium bombers i have trained into teh low 80's for experience I should be able to stop the JP from running the slot. then Tulagi is next. Or maybe I should get Gili Gili back.

anyway enough rambling.



Thrashman -> (4/10/2003 12:17:55 AM)

While playing a scen 17 game against the computer (v2.30) I hadn't set any mines at all in the game up until I put together a TF around 9/15/42 of DD's an 3 DM's out of Noumea. Sent them into Lunga (still owned by the Nips) on a night mining mission twice undetected. I sat back, waited 2 turns and BAM, 4 Maru's, 2 DD's , and the coup de gras CV Rhiyo(sp). That convoy high tailed it outta there didn't even unload it's cargo. 2 turns later still no reports of sinkings but what great payoff! I had a 3 CV TF standing buy to pick off damaged ships but it was (of course) Thunderstorms so my search planes didn't spot squat.



Feinder -> (4/10/2003 1:10:49 AM)

3 DMs x 60? mines each x 4? mines/salvo x 2 missions = 1440 mines.

That's alot of mines. Ouch.
-F-



Gamara -> (4/10/2003 1:23:41 AM)

Do Dm's need to return to nuomea to load mines? I am wonderign since I think I just had a DM reload from Townsville. But It may have been a matter of he didn't lay them the first time.



Yamamoto -> (4/10/2003 1:26:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gamara
[B]Do Dm's need to return to nuomea to load mines? I am wonderign since I think I just had a DM reload from Townsville. But It may have been a matter of he didn't lay them the first time. [/B][/QUOTE]

They are supposed to have to return to one of the three major bases to load mines. I know subs and ML do. If DM don't that would be a big bug.

Yamamoto



Gamara -> (4/10/2003 1:28:49 AM)

Well then i will check it tonight if I can and see if i need to post it on another forum. I thought they did. Also is ther any counter to the ENORMOUS Japanese Carrier fleet they have in early Sept. 1942. I have 3 carriers but i have no hope of countering thier massive 6+ carrier group.



wobbly -> (4/10/2003 5:54:59 AM)

Quoting Feinder

"I understand teh Subs thing, I am using the Argonaut to mine the slot. I have been careful to either mine a hex with a sub alread in it. Instead of traversing it with mines in the hex.
You can traverse a hex with your own mines fairly safely. And subs seem esp adverse to hitting ANY mines (I've never had my own subs hit a friednly OR enemy minefield)."

I have not found this to be entirely true.

If you lay your own mines in an ENEMY hex, you will also hit the mines if you enter the hex; whats more, if you lay mines in your own hex and then loose the control of the base, the mines seem to revert to "hit you" mines again. Mines laid in hexes owned by you can be traversed.
I had this happen at the beginning of scenerio 17, sent ML at shortland to gili while also sending an FT TF from rabaul to gili. The ML lays first, the FT comes in and hits mines! I then take the base, any subsequent TF's to Gili will be fine - the mines are now anti enemy only.

Correct about mine warfare TF's, they can clear the hex they are in and all adjacent hexes. i think they use the same magic technology that allows mines to send the name and number of ships they are about to hit to all and sundry. Obviously your subs will not be able to shoot at the mine warfare TF if it isn't physically in the hex.



herbieh -> Thanks wobbly (4/10/2003 9:24:01 AM)

Wobbly, I might be sticking to my word and not reading your thread, but I can read this one!
Mining the slot Huh!
thanks for the warning mate, Ill just amend a few plans.
Ps, it might be quiet now, but.............:D



wobbly -> (4/10/2003 10:22:11 AM)

Ohh I'd never mine the slot - dum de dum.



Admiral DadMan -> (4/19/2003 9:45:07 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SoulBlazer
[B]I got a related question -- I've got these Japanese ML's in a TF but don't know how to actually LAY the mines. Help? :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]You're kidding me, right?



elcid -> ancient (wwii) minesweeping (4/20/2003 10:36:39 PM)

There are THREE ways to sweep mines.

1. Use a minesweeper. This is a WWI technique involving a "sweep" - a wire. The best way is to drag the wire between two sweepers. The wire cuts the mooring lines. You then shoot the hourns with a rifle - but anyway the mines drift out of position and hit the shores or go out to sea. One MS can sweep. but if both ends of the wire are tied to her the sweep is tiny. So a realistic sim would make TWO sweepers together about ten times as effective as one - NOT UV though. This only works slow. It is basically not done at night.

2. Use paravanes. Little wires that are rigid sticking out a few feet (a very low number of meters) from a ships bow. The wires cut the mooring lines. You shoot the mines hourns here too, after they drift far enough away not to hurt you. Dangerous. The ship is a major fraction of the sweep, so you also use a bow lookout - many actually - and go dead slow - to avoid hitting a mine. And you often don't see the mine. It is amost suicide at night.

3. Use swimmers. Divers. They dismantle and disarm the mine, or set it off (!!!) Only works if you are stopped.

There is NO WAY to disarm mines at high speed, ever. There is NO WAY to disarm mines you cannot see at night at high speed, ever. On a clear night with good visibility, especially if you use search lights, you might dare to cross a minefield. Or you might dare to use swimmers.

UV has elected to "suspend belief" as the writer said. Mine warfare is really limited by three factors:

1. Supply. Your beloved Argunaut NEVER LAID A MINE for example. UV should not allow her to use her special gear. It was removed.

2. Shallows. Only one nation (Japan) had deep sea mooring cables for mines. ALL other nations ONLY laid mines in shallow (read coastal) hexes. For good reason: an open sea hex is so big it is easy to miss the mines! It is not clear deep water mines were ever effective for Japan. UV should forbid deep water mines, but it does not. However, they "drift" and disappear naturally. [Divide by 2 every day]

3. Ignorance. Mine warfare is not used because few warriors like them or understand them. The US mine campaign in 1945 was devastating, but the USAF hated to "waste" its bombers laying them, and basically stopped doing it after a few months. That is only the most dramatic example. Even navy guys feel that way. Subs hate to "waste" their missions on minelaying. They don't get to see the target go boom. And effective mine fields are defended minefields. Guns, PT boats, subs, even destroyers and aircraft multiply the effectiveness. But UV really only hints at that. The greatest mine victory in history was the Finnish one in WWII - over the Russian Baltic Fleet - using a DEFENDED minefield. But mine barriors won passive victories in both wars, and UV just forbids them altogether. To the degree they work, players complain, and the software guys reduce mine effectiveness.

I believe in combined arms warfare. And mines are a hidden asset in most navies. Few navies use them as successfully as the Iraqis did in 1991. Yet the designers think, because only a few ships were damaged, they were not effective. In reality, they denied the coast to us. That matters. You could mine a beach in UV - to deny it - covering it with coast guns - but UV won't let you.

Sid



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