What do you think?

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MichealJR -> What do you think? (2/28/2016 1:46:37 PM)
I am an old wargamer. First one I bought was AH 1914 in 1968. One of the only reasons I got into computers is to play against somebody be it the AI. I had, before I sold it, the original Squad Leader series. This looks a lot like that. I played Squad Leader solo for ages. How is this simulation? I am thinking about picking it up and was wondering if this is as good as you expected and worth the price?

demyansk -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 2:12:28 PM)
I was going to ask the same question, I have a load of games from Matrix and was thinking about this one or Order of the Pacific

RockKahn -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 2:18:15 PM)
I was watching this game very closely before it's release. I was hoping it would be fairly cheap, but I didn't expect it. On release day, I was a little disappointed it was $50, but I bought it anyway. I'm pleasantly surprised. It's a lot more fun to play than I'd originally expected. Despite the, relative to some other games, scarcity of unit data available to me, I'm having a blast playing it. I played a lot of SL, but no ASL. Playing this game does feel similar to SL. IMHO. I will definitely be getting my money's worth out of this game. I feel it's worth the price.

kylania -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 2:54:40 PM)
The AI is lackluster. It basically just moves towards and encircles the nearest victory point and stops. It often doesn't take obvious shots. I'd advanced into the street directly in front of a squad. On the next round the AI unit continued to plink rounds at the broken MMG squad it had been shooting at 4 hexes away in a stone building instead of my new guys standing in the street unprotected right next to them. The UI is infuriating at best and actively fights you at worst. The utterly non intuitive Ctrl-Click everything before doing anything control scheme and Right Click to view and/or shoot is both confusing and annoying and seriously detracts from the gameplay. If you want to move a stack forward one hex that's a left click in the middle of the screen followed by 4 Ctrl-Clicks in the bottom left of the screen followed by a right click back in the middle of the screen. Hope you don't accidentally misclick or let go of Ctrl while doing so or you need to start over. Having to Left Click a hex then also Ctrl-Click the unit in the hex just to move or shoot is redundant and aggravating. The warning messages as popup modal message boxes instead of highlighted text warnings brings a halt to gameplay constantly and makes you constantly move your mouse around to deal with UI elements instead of the game. You're unable to click information in the logs (which are also not saved either after the game or even within a turn segment) to see which unit/hex they are referring to. When a counter moves you'll see that it's in view of some unit, but have to click around to see which one but even then you can't always shoot since LOS doesn't take weapon efficiency into account. Dropped support weapons count for LOS. You need to mouse click the Continue button after every AI action, but it's sometimes difficult to tell what action just happened. The UI and controls are by far the worst parts of the game. The fog of war is a very cool feature often leading to a lot of "Well, I certainly ended up in a pickle this time!" moments. That or chasing a retreating squad through a forest but only hearing them or seeing them for a moment can be exciting. The game, especially with the SL style counter mods, definitely feels like Squad Leader which is a great thing. The ability to play SL against the computer, even given the complaints above, is wonderful. It is really fun quite often. While you can play with a human opponent in a hot seat configuration you can't use fog of war during this and there's no online multiplayer play. You could pass save files back and forth, but the turn segments are quite interactive at times. While it's a pretty good showing for a single developer, who is very passionate about his project, very interactive with the community and seems to be mostly receptive to improvement ideas, I can't really say that it's worth $50 in it's current state unless you were really missing Squad Leader on PC. It very much feels like an early access type game and while I've really been enjoying it, the state of the UI makes me save and quit in frustration far more often than I should. I'd have been more comfortable with a $30 price tag to be honest. It's a fine line between encouraging companies like Matrix to keep putting out these niche games and having to pay AAA prices for the pleasure. It's Squad Leader which is great. It's absolutely not a PC port of an iOS game which is even better (I'm looking at you Battle of the Bulge!) It's a fun WWII tactical counter game which I've really missed. Just needs a complete overhaul of it's controls and interaction and probably a bit of multiplayer capability to really shine.

mainsworthy -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 3:13:14 PM)
the JMass TotH VASL ASL mod(its in the mods and scenarios section,Im recommending this mod over the ASL mod, because the AFV have the movement points on the chits) - you need to download and install . the numbers on the units are real game numbers, you can load a map with a tank and you will see its correct combat values. the SL mod combat values are not SL there changed to Letters eg A-H. even if the game had no A.I. it would be worth it to play ASL with enforced rules, the popup messages are like a friend teaching you ASL. if you have played ASL , and loved it buy this game at 10 times the price

iPhoneAppz -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 3:18:31 PM)
I agree with Kylania about the UI/UX. I also agree with Kylania and mansworthy about the gameplay. If you liked playing SL or ASL, it's well worth the $50 to jump in on this game. I'm pretty confident that the developer will continue to support the game and fix the minor issues with the UI. I can't speak to the quality of the AI because I haven't played enough games. I really hope that the developer adds online multiplayer (I've offered to personally help with implementing this and other UI/UX features). Online multiplayer would make this one of the best tactical wargames ever to appear on PC.

idjester -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 4:03:05 PM)
If you want to be able to play ASL on the computer where else are you going to go? This game is strongly inspired by the old board game rules and it has done a perfect job of making that a reality. No other game comes close to playing ASL imo.. It's quick, easy, there is a ton of scenarios, and the editor is a joy to use which means many more scenarios are coming out from the community. I live stream games just about every day so come join in and see for yourself. I know the developer thinks of this as his love child so he will take care of it and see it continue to grow. What else could you want to be able to play ASL...

Bizmork -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 4:08:43 PM)
I strongly disagree with mainsworthy....I am playing ASL for over 25 years and i can not recommend this game for ASL players at all.... The lack of information that the player has ( and i am not talking fog of war i mean mechanics)makes this a guessing game. If you like to have an idea about the outcome if you take a shot forget this. Also i think that the lack of sophistication of the AI is made up for by boosting its odds behind the scenes... I just played a game where i had 2 Russian Elite Squads a HMG and an elite Leader in a trench. I take a shot a two moving elite squads with a not so good leader in woods 3 hexes away.. Leader is ok both squads pin. In advance fire they return fire and break everyone in the russian hex. That is rather the norm in all the games i played so far (about 6). I still win the scenarios though... The handling is rather 90ts and the whole interface feals odd, complicated and outdated. No center on enemy moves for example. Vehicles cant rotate ? Come on... To be honest i think that last scenario did it for me...back to VASL. For all of you that like it, i hope you have many hours of fun with this it just aint for me.

mainsworthy -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 4:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bizmork I strongly disagree with mainsworthy....I am playing ASL for over 25 years and i can not recommend this game for ASL players at all.... The lack of information that the player has ( and i am not talking fog of war i mean mechanics)makes this a guessing game. If you like to have an idea about the outcome if you take a shot forget this. Also i think that the lack of sophistication of the AI is made up for by boosting its odds behind the scenes... I just played a game where i had 2 Russian Elite Squads a HMG and an elite Leader in a trench. I take a shot a two moving elite squads with a not so good leader in woods 3 hexes away.. Leader is ok both squads pin. In advance fire they return fire and break everyone in the russian hex. That is rather the norm in all the games i played so far (about 6). I still win the scenarios though... The handling is rather 90ts and the whole interface feals odd, complicated and outdated. No center on enemy moves for example. Vehicles cant rotate ? Come on... To be honest i think that last scenario did it for me...back to VASL. For all of you that like it, i hope you have many hours of fun with this it just aint for me. does the vassal mod have the charts included? they could be used here? and you could be lazy and play hotseat in this game for ASL with enforced rules.

surfcandy -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 4:40:04 PM)
I am enjoying the game.I enjoy playing without mods.There isn't really anything else out there that approaches the traditional board game to PC on this squad level. Is there room for improvement? Of course as was mentioned above and throughout the forum. Is it still a very good game? Yes. If the developer listens and makes the right decisions on the patch improvements this game can very easily become a classic war game with a large following. The editor is already a great feature and will only get better. Looking forward to the next few patches to improve combat info, movement info and less clicking around.

mainsworthy -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 5:08:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MichealJR I am an old wargamer. First one I bought was AH 1914 in 1968. One of the only reasons I got into computers is to play against somebody be it the AI. I had, before I sold it, the original Squad Leader series. This looks a lot like that. I played Squad Leader solo for ages. How is this simulation? I am thinking about picking it up and was wondering if this is as good as you expected and worth the price? follow this thread for a similar guy as you All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Tigers on the Hunt >> Thank You From An Old-Timer I'm not able to post links yet by nucleardad85 this is his post I do not post hardly ever, if at all, but had to stop and thank you for the effort that has gone into this game. I got my wargaming start with old AH board games but never could enjoy them to the fullest because of a lack of opponents and the difficulty of solitare play. I was saved somewhat when the early computer tactical games came along, but I always missed being able to play SL and ASL the way they were meant to be played - with a great board and counters. This game gives me that opportunity. Using the "ASL-like" maps provided in the mods section, I have already been able to create and play ASL Scenario A "The Guards Counterattack". Being able to create the scenarios and play them is a great joy! Please keep up the good work and keep the new stuff coming in the future! Thank you for not forgetting about those of us for whom the play and the love of history (not the graphics) are the most important things.

madorosh -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 5:11:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: idjester If you want to be able to play ASL on the computer where else are you going to go? VASL. I don't expect this will ever replace ASL for the converted, but if the development keeps up it has a lot of potential. I think the comparisons to ASL may actually be unfortunate as there is a lot that is different here - routing rules, terrain types, etc. But the potential to be something extremely good, especially if the UI is improved. If there is only one unit in a hex, don't make me click twice to do something with it, for example.

Krys -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 5:20:43 PM)
I strongly recommend TOTH for any & all ASL fans. Map graphics are great, I really like the look of the unit graphics, and having played through 3 full games (in addition to all the tutorials) I'm very much enjoying the game play. Would I like more information on a lot of areas? Yes; no question about it. I'd like either an appendix with a chart showing range and potential damage of all weapons, or perhaps a 'mouse roll-over popup' showing unit values, I'd like somewhere in the manual to point out that when adjacent to your target fire is double strength, that when you're outside of standard max range there is an "extended range" where you can still hit your target with reduced firepower. The existence of adjacent increased firepower and extended range reduced firepower have been clarified by Peter in posts - but to the best of my knowledge aren't mentioned in the game manual, and since we don't know what standard range of any weapon is, we can't possibly know what extended range is, where it begins, or how much damage it can do. Some things that pop up in the game leave me a bit non-plussed. AFVs can become bogged. Ok, but what's the impact? How do they become 'unbogged'? Are they more vulnerable when bogged down, or is the only impact that they can't more or change hull direction? But to me, none of these are game breakers. It's still so very much like ASL that I'm greatly enjoying it. And of course there's also the Scenario Editor, which overall is very nicely done. Lastly, Peter has absolutely dedicated massive efforts into what we have, and I am quite confident that he (and his associated) will keep working on and bettering TOTH for a long time to come. Bottom line: Buy it. Heck, buy a couple and give one to a friend, the more Peter sells, the better the resource pool on which he can draw to keep making improvements and adding features. (Heck, he even put a map graphics mod out that I switched to immediately. The map that comes with the game is very good, but Peter's mod does a better job with hills and other elevation items, and has a bit nicer look overall. Very nice! And I ask you - when was the last time you saw a game developer release an alternate map graphics package within a day or two of a game's launch? Like...never....would be my guess. Keep it up Peter!! And Jorgen - you guys are super!! [:)]

Bradley62 -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 5:45:11 PM)
The game coupled with VASL or ASL counters is a must and plays very similar to ASL. Fun and immersive gameplay with a great editor makes this purchase well worth it IMO. UI interaction needs improvement. Less clicking would be a wonderful addition.

Richie61 -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 6:11:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mainsworthy the SL mod combat values are not SL there changed to Letters eg A-H. I did that on purpose with the Squad Leader mod. I wanted the SL look, but I also wanted the TotH counter data [:)] I used 2 man images for full squads and 1 man for half squads to help know your squad sizes with your eyeballs [;)]

mainsworthy -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 6:17:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Richie61 quote: ORIGINAL: mainsworthy the SL mod combat values are not SL there changed to Letters eg A-H. I did that on purpose with the Squad Leader mod. I wanted the SL look, but I also wanted the TotH counter data [:)] I used 2 man images for full squads and 1 man for half squads to help know your squad sizes with your eyeballs [;)] Ed I like to use the SL mod too, just like the ASL one with the numbers. why don't you use your ASL mod but tag on the vehicles from the JMass VASL mod, but use his terrain or maybe do 2 versions of terrain? I like your units better but JMass has the AFV move points

Panzerfiles -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 9:15:44 PM)
The ASL min max crowd are out in force. If you bothered to even read why Peter didn't add numbers, nor charts, nor dice rolls; you would understand that ToH was meant to be played; not play by number crunching. To each there own. I rather enjoy ToH, easy to understand once you read the manual and fun to play. Now Peter please add a mouse scroll ZOOM feature, must needed for large battles to get an overall view of the battlefield.

MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 9:25:16 PM)
I did bother to read it, but didn't I understand it. The explanation made no sense to me. At the risk of getting philosophical for the moment, while Peter is developing this game in his back room for his own enjoyment, it's his baby to do with as he likes. No question about that. But as soon as he publishes it, and especially if he's charging people money for the pleasure of playing it, it is no longer his baby, it is our baby. It's a great game, no doubt, and it's an astonishing achievement, also no doubt, but it no longer belongs exclusively to Peter, it belongs to the whole community. Best Wishes Mike

keas66 -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 9:25:44 PM)
In reply to Michael Dorosh's statement about VASL being an alternative way to play ASL on the computer - it is if you want to make that commitment to another online player .TOTH is not scratching that itch though for me . It is providing a way to get SASL like experience on the Computer without me making any time commitments to anyone else except myself . For that reason it will probably be getting run every day for foreseeable future on my PC .

Perelandra67 -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 9:45:48 PM)
I sort of regret buying it, but only because of the assumptions I made about it. It "seemed" to be a lot more than it really is. It is not ASL, it is more like starter Kit ASL, or Panzer Corps. I had fun doing the 10 or so scenarios I played, so , there's that. No combat values, no ToE, no "chapter H" info, no way to know odds, no way to know where I can move to, the sub-par AI, weird rules (my PZ IV's ran out of AP on turn 1, after 1 shot - that's AP, not APCR), are negatives for me, but easily positives for others. And that's fine. THE ASL mods are great, but it's just artwork. I think this a great step in the right direction. the developers did something I could never do. So, good job! but this not ASL, and it's not a game for serious/hardcore WW2 gamers.

madorosh -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 10:18:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Perelandra67 I sort of regret buying it, but only because of the assumptions I made about it. It "seemed" to be a lot more than it really is. It is not ASL, it is more like starter Kit ASL This occurred to me when I was out for a walk, and you are right. No upper floors, no walls, etc. The comparison to ASL doesn't do this game justice. If there has to be one made, it would probably be closest to ASLSK but still with major differences. If one can accept this game for its own merits, I think it will please people more. Obviously hard to do as ASL is always going to be the gold standard, whether it is comparing computer games, board games or board-like computer games... Much to like here, but also lots that can be done to make it even better. I'm sure we all have our own lists. Flame weapons would be on mine, only because the CW used them very often after Normandy.

Peter Fisla -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 10:27:00 PM)
Flame throwers and Molotov projector are in the game...

madorosh -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 11:00:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla Flame throwers and Molotov projector are in the game... Thanks for this.

Peter Fisla -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 11:19:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh quote: ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla Flame throwers and Molotov projector are in the game... Thanks for this. Please see section 8.2 Appendix 8 for all support weapons, ordnance and AFVs in the game.

madorosh -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 11:34:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla quote: ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh quote: ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla Flame throwers and Molotov projector are in the game... Thanks for this. Please see section 8.2 Appendix 8 for all support weapons, ordnance and AFVs in the game. Yes, flipping through it just now. To be honest I was thinking of WASP and Crocodile vehicles, but it seems unfair to keep criticizing the game for what it doesn't have or include rather than what it does do. The list of vehicles and ordnance is impressive.

Gerry4321 -> RE: What do you think? (2/28/2016 11:42:44 PM)
And four nationalities. Very impressive for sure.

bo -> RE: What do you think? (2/29/2016 2:23:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Krys I strongly recommend TOTH for any & all ASL fans. Map graphics are great, I really like the look of the unit graphics, and having played through 3 full games (in addition to all the tutorials) I'm very much enjoying the game play. Would I like more information on a lot of areas? Yes; no question about it. I'd like either an appendix with a chart showing range and potential damage of all weapons, or perhaps a 'mouse roll-over popup' showing unit values, I'd like somewhere in the manual to point out that when adjacent to your target fire is double strength, that when you're outside of standard max range there is an "extended range" where you can still hit your target with reduced firepower. The existence of adjacent increased firepower and extended range reduced firepower have been clarified by Peter in posts - but to the best of my knowledge aren't mentioned in the game manual, and since we don't know what standard range of any weapon is, we can't possibly know what extended range is, where it begins, or how much damage it can do. Some things that pop up in the game leave me a bit non-plussed. AFVs can become bogged. Ok, but what's the impact? How do they become 'unbogged'? Are they more vulnerable when bogged down, or is the only impact that they can't more or change hull direction? But to me, none of these are game breakers. It's still so very much like ASL that I'm greatly enjoying it. And of course there's also the Scenario Editor, which overall is very nicely done. Lastly, Peter has absolutely dedicated massive efforts into what we have, and I am quite confident that he (and his associated) will keep working on and bettering TOTH for a long time to come. Bottom line: Buy it. Heck, buy a couple and give one to a friend, the more Peter sells, the better the resource pool on which he can draw to keep making improvements and adding features. (Heck, he even put a map graphics mod out that I switched to immediately. The map that comes with the game is very good, but Peter's mod does a better job with hills and other elevation items, and has a bit nicer look overall. Very nice! And I ask you - when was the last time you saw a game developer release an alternate map graphics package within a day or two of a game's launch? Like...never....would be my guess. Keep it up Peter!! And Jorgen - you guys are super!! [:)] I have learned to never buy a game until several weeks go by, and what I am reading I still feel it is the correct thing to do, I am having a problem with "heck buy a game or two and help Peter out" no thank you Krys, this is his baby and he lives or dies with what he produced. I rebel in paying for a programmers mistakes [not saying there is any here]. If their is one thing I have learned as being a beta tester for World In Flames is one person creators of a game is not a good idea. I realize that each player sees the game differently than another, but what I am reading is not good, Then again I prefer strategic games over tactile games but that is just me, just an opinion right or wrong. Bo

jascou -> RE: What do you think? (2/29/2016 2:33:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh quote: ORIGINAL: Perelandra67 I sort of regret buying it, but only because of the assumptions I made about it. It "seemed" to be a lot more than it really is. It is not ASL, it is more like starter Kit ASL This occurred to me when I was out for a walk, and you are right. No upper floors, no walls, etc. The comparison to ASL doesn't do this game justice. If there has to be one made, it would probably be closest to ASLSK but still with major differences. If one can accept this game for its own merits, I think it will please people more. Obviously hard to do as ASL is always going to be the gold standard, whether it is comparing computer games, board games or board-like computer games... Much to like here, but also lots that can be done to make it even better. I'm sure we all have our own lists. Flame weapons would be on mine, only because the CW used them very often after Normandy. IMHO, the danger in adding more chrome at this point -- a 1.0 release -- would be a higher number of bugs created and the difficulty in trying to correct them without breaking other things. I think it was a wise decision on Peter's part to focus on getting the core rules working properly, release it, and deal with the inevitable bugs that will crop up -- before tackling deeper features. I look at the current state as a solid core to build upon. I too would have loved the features mentioned here, but that would would have potentially created a whole mess of problems for the game at this stage. Peter has to ensure stability not just in the game, but with the editor as well. I think that he made the right set of trade-offs getting it to this point. In terms of complaints about the UI so far, I can sympathize, but I also think that creating a more elaborate UI at this point would have created a situation of the developer painting himself into a corner early on. A sparse UI at this point makes a lot of sense from a development standpoint, IMO, as it is often the most difficult part of a program to change after everything has been set in stone. Hopefully, Peter is considering feedback and can make improvements that most people will be happy with. Further, perhaps there some things that can be done better on a computer than in the board game, rendering some of the way ASL handles things unnecessary. We just don't know how or where this game can evolve to yet, but I am pretty enthused about what is in store. Just my 2 cents.

giffin -> RE: What do you think? (2/29/2016 2:54:23 AM)
Thank you Peter for all the time you spent on this game! I added the VASL MOD from JMass with the Original Counters & Small markers with Original Terrain today. It brings back old memories of dusty counter pushed under the bed until I could play again when I was a kid. I bought the game the 1st day and have not regretted it. Look forward to more MODs and more scenarios to keep me coming back for more play time.[&o]

Missouri_Rebel -> RE: What do you think? (2/29/2016 2:58:08 AM)
Bo, when games come out people almost always have expectations on how it will play and operate and with those, come dissapointment. That is natural. I don't own the game yet because I'm having ordering issues but, I have followed closely it's release, including a couple of twitch feeds. Clearly there are a couple issues that most people think are missing/incomplete. Other complaints, and by far the most numerous, have been about the decision to have things running under the hood. I have my opinions on that but, at the end of the day, it was a design decision to implement it that way. Still others were hoping it would be ASL on computer. I was in that camp but, prior to release, understood that that's not realistic. Some believe the price was too high. I understand their concern yet, Matrix knows this genre better than most as evident by their almost sole position in the market. Lastly there are those that do not care for it. Naturally those voices will be the loudest. What should also be taken in consideration are all the people very happy with the game. This number is quite large by reading the posts. Of course many happy customers are also quiet on the forums. They may feel it not warranted to attack others views. In spite of the single programmer, I think he should be applauded for his incredible effort of releasing a game with so few bugs. Even if there are things people want and wish, there is no mistaking that Peter spent a good effort on tight code. The one problem with resolution was quickly fixed after he went out and bought a new monitor to help him address it. Kudos for that type of support. I'm not knocking your opinion at all, and even though I have been critical here concerning various aspects, this game is worthy of both praise and scrutiny. At least in my opinion. Now get to fixing my support ticket Matrix. EDIT. Really not meant as an attack on your thoughts as much as a clarification on my position and views, of which, I've been pretty vocal.

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