Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (Full Version)

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Gerry4321 -> Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/12/2016 11:05:57 PM)

In the first example a tank with reliability problems immobilized on the first start. Notice there is no place for the other ones to move to!

Second example not quite so bad as I can move around the OOC tank.

Please consider allowing tanks to drive through a hex containing another tank. I don't want two tanks per hex, just to drive through. I don't mind losing in games but this restriction is taking away a lot of the fun.

Second example in next post.




[image]local://upfiles/8839/457675E2C03E47F5BFCEA118589C58FB.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/12/2016 11:06:40 PM)

Second example here:

[image]local://upfiles/8839/C7EB43808A57439FB8183FB0CCDB22A7.jpg[/image]



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/12/2016 11:49:05 PM)

The idea that only a single AFV can occupy a space greater than 1000 square metres, or that one AFV can't pass another in such a space is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

If the intention is to model ASL all well and good, but there's no reason to model the really stupid bits.


Best Wishes

Mike



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 12:02:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

The idea that only a single AFV can occupy a space greater than 1000 square metres, or that one AFV can't pass another in such a space is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

If the intention is to model ASL all well and good, but there's no reason to model the really stupid bits.


Best Wishes

Mike


Couldnt tanks bypass move through hexes that had tanks in them in ASL?

IMO, tanks should be able to move through hexes but pay a big movement penalty, incur a penalty if they fire from the hex (or maybe no fire at all) and any interdiction into the hex containing 2 tanks be done with a positive modifier.

Of course, what takes a sentence to write is many lines of code I am sure.



Monkie -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 12:04:38 AM)

ASL modeled what I believe was called "bypass movement" or something like that which would have allowed those tanks to move around the disabled unit. Then tank was assumed to be moving right along the hex sides themselves. Maybe that can be implemented in the future.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 12:23:55 AM)

Bypass in ASL could be used by tanks and infantry for bypassing buildings and woods hexsides.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 12:26:09 AM)

idjester had a good discussion about bypass movement in his stream last night. I thought they were on the mark concerning ASL, and the effort to implement them in a boardgame, but imo, there needs to be a way to circumvent the issue above.



dynaman216 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 1:05:13 AM)

An extra tank was normally a simple +1mp in ASL (with some other penalties firing out and on bridges etc...). There was no stacking limit as such



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 1:08:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

Bypass in ASL could be used by tanks and infantry for bypassing buildings and woods hexsides.



While the idea of Bypass is nice, and maybe idjester touched on it, but, can you imagine interdiction for every hexspine? I'd prefer an easier alternative if they ever revisit it in the future.



idjester -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 3:09:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

In the first example a tank with reliability problems immobilized on the first start. Notice there is no place for the other ones to move to!

Second example not quite so bad as I can move around the OOC tank.

Please consider allowing tanks to drive through a hex containing another tank. I don't want two tanks per hex, just to drive through. I don't mind losing in games but this restriction is taking away a lot of the fun.

Second example in next post.



Gerry I do get your point but a D2 map can look deceiving when you compare that to reality. There isn't 1000 meters of free space between those building and we sometime forget the realities of war when looking at a D2 map. Hardly even did a tank or vehicle pass another one when they were moving unless they were in open landscape.

Just ask the British soldiers at Arnhem about this. They were told their relief force was coming from just miles away and would be there shortly but these reinforcements were attacked by a few German soldiers, which blew up some of the lead tanks. Since they were traveling down a single lane road these units ground to a halt. They could go nowhere for days until they removed the tanks that were in front. 4 miles of vehicles stacked up behind a few broken down tanks.

The reality of this situation is that you can’t just drive around a vehicle because one broke down in front of you. There normally isn’t the space, there isn’t the maneuverability, and the time and effort to undertake this just wasn’t feasible.

As mentioned above we don’t want to get into a situation where by-pass movement is the way to go because of the logistics of worrying about hexspine movement, broken units in by-pass movement, and LOS with a unit in by-pass. It boils down to need verses want.

Maybe this will get changed in a future update to TOTH if Peter thinks it is important but I just wanted to give a different perspective on the situation which we can’t see when we are looking at a 2D map.

idjester


[image]local://upfiles/40603/9D26033837EA4A55B4C5E0E3FCCBC7A8.jpg[/image]



idjester -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 3:24:01 AM)

BTW, I am not saying I am not infavor of multi vehicles in a hex but we have to remember this is alot of extra coding that Peter would have to do to implement this. Because now when your targeting a hex
with more than 1 vehicle he would have to bring up a menu to select the vehicle you want to hit with your attack, plus the coding for having those counters in the same hex and overlaying them, and probably
a bunch of other things as well that I don't know about because I am not a programmer.

Is it worth the time and effor for Peter to do this when his time and effort could be used elsewhere?

Need vs. Want...



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 11:46:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: idjester

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry

In the first example a tank with reliability problems immobilized on the first start. Notice there is no place for the other ones to move to!

Second example not quite so bad as I can move around the OOC tank.

Please consider allowing tanks to drive through a hex containing another tank. I don't want two tanks per hex, just to drive through. I don't mind losing in games but this restriction is taking away a lot of the fun.

Second example in next post.



Gerry I do get your point but a D2 map can look deceiving when you compare that to reality. There isn't 1000 meters of free space between those building and we sometime forget the realities of war when looking at a D2 map. Hardly even did a tank or vehicle pass another one when they were moving unless they were in open landscape.

Just ask the British soldiers at Arnhem about this. They were told their relief force was coming from just miles away and would be there shortly but these reinforcements were attacked by a few German soldiers, which blew up some of the lead tanks. Since they were traveling down a single lane road these units ground to a halt. They could go nowhere for days until they removed the tanks that were in front. 4 miles of vehicles stacked up behind a few broken down tanks.

The reality of this situation is that you can’t just drive around a vehicle because one broke down in front of you. There normally isn’t the space, there isn’t the maneuverability, and the time and effort to undertake this just wasn’t feasible.

As mentioned above we don’t want to get into a situation where by-pass movement is the way to go because of the logistics of worrying about hexspine movement, broken units in by-pass movement, and LOS with a unit in by-pass. It boils down to need verses want.

Maybe this will get changed in a future update to TOTH if Peter thinks it is important but I just wanted to give a different perspective on the situation which we can’t see when we are looking at a 2D map.

idjester


[image]local://upfiles/40603/9D26033837EA4A55B4C5E0E3FCCBC7A8.jpg[/image]



You're right to say that there are a lot of situations where an AFV wouldn't be able to pass another. A narrow road with boggy ground to either side, where the AFVs would simply get stuck (as at Arnhem) is a good example. A narrow street in Stalingrad might be another, or crossing a rail bridge over the Rhine. But these are largely the exceptions. The vast majority of hexes on most TotH boards would allow such passing of one AFV by another. I realise that this poses a problem for Peter, in how to be able to model both situations.

Allowing AFVs in all hexes to be able to pass one another restricts those scenarios where the inability to do that adds to the tactical interest of the scenario and makes the scenario more historically accurate, and that is clearly undesirable. Denying AFVs the ability to pass each other in all hexes clearly hampers the tactical interest and historical accuracy of other scenarios, which is clearly undesirable. The alternative, to attach to each hex a property that defines whether AFVs can pass in it or not requires more work from Peter, and although this might be the most desirable solution for us players, for Peter it's a decision of priorities. The time spent on this is time not spent on something else.


Best Wishes

Mike



Peter Fisla -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 2:17:58 PM)

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 3:36:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.


Totally understandable, Peter, but what about allowing AFVs to pass each other, rather than occupy the same hex? How much work would that involve?


Best Wishes

Mike



Peter Fisla -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 3:54:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.


Totally understandable, Peter, but what about allowing AFVs to pass each other, rather than occupy the same hex? How much work would that involve?


Best Wishes

Mike


That won't work since stacking of 1 AFV per hex is always enforced. In addition, if you move your AFV and the enemy wants to defensive fire on then your AFV has to be a hex.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 6:44:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.


I understand the difficulties. However the impact on gameplay is very significant as in the pic above. It would not be a problem if the player could place the AFVs at setup. Now they are all lined up and when the first is immobilized there is no way to get that guy out of the way.

Plus there is no bypass capability so the other AFVs cannot go anywhere. It affects so many other AFVs in this scenario.

In real life they would push it off the road. We cannot do that.



dox44 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 7:20:03 PM)

can immobilization be made an option?



Peter Fisla -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/13/2016 7:32:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: casebier

can immobilization be made an option?


In the scenario editor yes, not in the game.



harley9699 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 2:13:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.


So, you get a situation like Gerry's, that's it? Game over, right? Doesn't matter how many turns in, "screw you, you're done."
Should be able to do something. Hell, push them with an AFV or something.
Not cool.



waltero -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 8:28:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Allowing two vehicles per hex is a huge undertaking and it impacts almost every area of the game engine.

1) It would require to modify the game database and scenario file structure as well as game editor.

2) Almost all the game rules, Fire, movement, stacking, close combat, AI would need to be modified.

We are talking months of work here, it's a major re-design/development impact on the game engine; not something that I'm really interested in. I made a decision early on in the development to only allow one vehicle per hex. The impact on the game development was big, from the game play perspective the impact is not so big - from my point of view.


Its beginning to look as if this is the finished product. Starting to sound a little bleak around here...when coding becomes the main focal point (problematic).
Maybe it is time for Peter to take a break. Upon his return, after leaving his baby, having a fresh outlook on his creation...God willing- do what ever it takes to make this the greatest game the World has ever seeeen!
THE WORLD!!!

Peter, Peter he's our man, if he can't do it no one can!






Dietrich53 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 1:55:59 PM)

If one knows the rules, one also knows the consequences. Ergo, no single file of tanks. Just like the British should not have done and allow Michael Wittmann to slaughter a column by blocking front and rear.
I don't think this is a critical topic of the game. There are far more important "fixes" to implement before that. However, a simple "drive through" should be not that tough to implement. Just ignore the wreck as an obstacle.

But, it is a GREAT game already!



dox44 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 2:38:37 PM)

"Its beginning to look as if this is the finished product. Starting to sound a little bleak around here"

Its pretty obvious peter could have built ASL if he wanted to but you are right in a subtle way...TotH was
never meant to be ASL--starting at ground level--for obvious reasons.

Its inspired by ASL (ad nauseam).TotH is not ASL (ad nauseum).

since its not changing...this now has turned into a scenario design issue.

adjust accordingly.

TotH is a very good game standing on its own as we will be reminded (ad nauseum)
by ASL elitist and thats fine by me.







baloo7777 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 3:38:29 PM)

quote:

TotH is a very good game standing on its own as we will be reminded (ad nauseum)
by ASL elitist and thats fine by me.


+1



DoubleDeuce -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 5:12:14 PM)

Peter, just thinking out loud but as a "work around", would it be possible code the game to allow vehicles to enter building hexes, even with a large MP cost? Something like that would lessen the impact of bottle-necking and simulate finding a bypass route but with obvoius drowback of slowing the following vehicles down but not totally stopping forward movement?



Peter Fisla -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 5:17:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Double Deuce

Peter, just thinking out loud but as a "work around", would it be possible code the game to allow vehicles to enter building hexes, even with a large MP cost? Something like that would lessen the impact of bottle-necking and simulate finding a bypass route but with obvoius drowback of slowing the following vehicles down but not totally stopping forward movement?


You can, just be prepared that your AFV may Bog down (fully-tracked that is, half-tracks and armored cars cannot enter buildings, check out Appendix C on page 71). AI however doesn't consider moving through buildings...



idjester -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 5:35:38 PM)

Just thinking here... not sure how easy or hard it would be to code but maybe there could be an option to just remove a unit. That way you could just remove it all together.

I still think the best option of the examples listed above is for the tanks in the rear to just move and the ones in the middle would have to turn around and follow the other tank. For me this issue really isn't that much "AN ISSUE" but rather a
"tactical situation" that the player will have to adjust for. Strange things happen in battle all the time and you have to adjust
and alter your game plan accordingly. For me this situation would be a joy to play and figure out instead of a curse, I would just think the situation has changed and I have to "figure" out a different plan quickly to remedy the problem.

A tactical wargamers delight!!!

idjester



DoubleDeuce -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 5:40:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

quote:

ORIGINAL: Double Deuce

Peter, just thinking out loud but as a "work around", would it be possible code the game to allow vehicles to enter building hexes, even with a large MP cost? Something like that would lessen the impact of bottle-necking and simulate finding a bypass route but with obvoius drowback of slowing the following vehicles down but not totally stopping forward movement?


You can, just be prepared that your AFV may Bog down (fully-tracked that is, half-tracks and armored cars cannot enter buildings, check out Appendix C on page 71). AI however doesn't consider moving through buildings...

Hmm, saw that but when I had been trying it in the games I've played so far it wouldn't let me. Went back and tested further and it worked. I must not have had enough MP remaining to enter them when I was playing before. Duh!



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/19/2016 5:44:37 PM)

My concern about all this is that it will cause players to adopt tactics which are completely ahistorical, and as soon as that starts to occur in a game it loses its authenticity and its appeal.

Battle Academy and Battle Academy 2 are good games, but playing them multiplayer is just silly, as everyone plays peek-a-boo combat with their AFVs and the game becomes farcical from an historical point of view. The game rewards stupid behaviour and so people who want to win behave stupidly. I'd rather TotH didn't end up going down this path. I'd prefer it to be a game where those who behave in an historically appropriate manner succeed.

I suppose the same argument could be made about multi-hex firegroups and a number of other issues as well.


Best Wishes

Mike



barkhorn45 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (3/20/2016 1:10:27 PM)

What I find interesting is that a wrecked afv takes up the same space as a operational afv.
You can go thru the hex,even though it maybe burning with ammunition cooking off.
Another strange design decision.2 afv not being able to occupy a fairly large area.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Problem with 1 Tank per Hex (4/1/2016 9:57:02 PM)

Another example. Russians start with 5 BA-6s IIRC. One is in the line of fire of the Jerries who get to shoot first and kill one. NP.

Now it's my turn and 2 BA-6s fail their radio check which is fine but they are blocking the other BA-6. The BA-6 that started from the yellow dot hex has to go way south of the woods to move in the desired direction of North. Pretty much scenario over.

If there was bypass then this situation would be playable.

[image]local://upfiles/8839/A34333018A314B65843443E2FDE591EE.jpg[/image]



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