Most important improvements (Full Version)

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jhpanther -> Most important improvements (3/15/2016 10:12:33 AM)

I think this game has the potential to be the best squad combat game ever. I find however, that the limitation of the game is the lack of network play. The AI requires way too much work to be realistic and there will always be a demand for human-human play. So my advice is: after solving the known bugs, focus entirely on network play.



Jafele -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 11:23:52 AM)

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.



Cataphract88 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 12:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.


+1



Peter Fisla -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 12:36:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.


Right, that's my plan...



Jafele -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 12:56:03 PM)

Wow! Thanks Peter. You made my day. [&o] The AI is the soul of the game and make it special. [:)]



jhpanther -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 1:30:01 PM)

Exactly. There are few games with a challenging AI because it is too difficult to make it react realistic. I think the present AI do it ok when in defense, but I think you will gain much more by making network possible and then implement the remaining to make the game ASL. An AI will keep you busy forever.



jhpanther -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 1:41:49 PM)

I dont know if command problems were the biggest issues in squad level combat. The system with hard/very hard settings gives a more challenging AI, but you could get that also by giving the computer double firepower. That would not make it realistic , only challenging. By concentrating for a while on network you could after that concentrate on additional ASl rules and units without having to spend a lot of time testing AI for every new implementation

Dont misunderstand me. I am very happy with the game.



Peter Fisla -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 1:53:11 PM)

To have fun with the game play on Hard or Very Hard. All the scenarios that come with the game were designed with Hard difficulty in mind. The command and control feature is important feature of the game. On hard difficulty both the human player and the AI check for command and control. On Very Hard only the human player checks for command and control. The AI does not cheat and doesn't get any bonuses, I want to make this clear. In addition when designing new scenarios the AI will need a few more units and they need to be placed in the right locations on the map.



jhpanther -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 2:04:34 PM)

I am probably not the only one who have been waiting for years for a ASL like game to simulate squad level combat. I also dont think I am the only one who would like it to be realistic. I think that is the most important thing to keep people interested in this game. After a while it is not enough it is challenging. I think you can code and tune an AI forever and never get it close to the level of a human player. es, your AI works fine with few weapons/units and in static defense positions but it does not react realistic enough when it has to cobe with changing conditions. My point is that you will never achieve this.



Jafele -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 2:58:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jhpanther

I think you can code and tune an AI forever and never get it close to the level of a human player. es, your AI works fine with few weapons/units and in static defense positions but it does not react realistic enough when it has to cobe with changing conditions. My point is that you will never achieve this.


That traditional mentality is the reason why there are no games with challenging AI nowdays. We donīt need more short-lived games, instead something different.



Cataphract88 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 3:45:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.


Right, that's my plan...


Bravo, Peter! [sm=happy0065.gif]



snowbird -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 3:49:51 PM)

Totally agree with Peter and others -- focus on AI improvement. VASL (well established) can fill the network online play need.



Gerry4321 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 4:31:51 PM)

VASL requires knowing the ASL rulebook.




fluidwill matrix -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 4:43:50 PM)

An AI does not lie awake at night coming up with new and inventive ways of countering your favourite tactic. An AI does not form a relationship that evolves over time involving mutual respect and bluff double triple and so on dependent on shared history.

That said, all I ever wanted was a decent solo SL experience. Thing is, if you provide a decent PvP experience, that's it, THEN you can spend as many eons as you like tweaking the AI.

Sorry for the garble - on phone



idjester -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 4:48:51 PM)

Who says there has to be an either/or option.. Let Peter work on the AI as his plans indicate and then maybe down the line they will add in a multiplayer option.. There really doesn't need to be a debate
about which one is right or better.

I'm just happy we have a game to play and both of those options would be good..



snowbird -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 5:19:49 PM)

Agreed -- almost wrote the same response above as idjester [:)]

Gerry has a good point too -- no ASL rulebook is required for this game.

Essentially, AI first and potentially multiplayer down the road.



jhpanther -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 5:47:23 PM)

Traditional thinking or not. I have worked with AI development and know how challenging it is. The complexity increases by the number of combinations (read weapons, unit etc). With limited development resources, I just try to say, that if the AI will never be good enough to keep gamers interested in the game (what I fear) then time is better used implementing human-human play.



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 6:11:09 PM)

For what it's worth, my view on this is that multiplayer has to be the way to go if you want the game to survive long term.

An excellent AI is undoubtedly a good thing and something to be aspired to, but I don't think this will keep a sufficient number of players interested in the long term, even with the excellent work that people are putting in to develop new mods and new scenarios.

In my experience, playing computer games since the late 70s, the games which survive for many years are those which provide players with a chance to compete with each other, and that competition isn't going to be practical without some kind of multiplayer system built into the game itself.

If you are really serious about this being a long term project, Peter, and I believe you are, then I fear that the number of people who will be playing this game in 5 years will dwindle down to next to nothing with just an AI to play against. Multiplayer allows competitions to be set up, leagues and tournaments for people to take part in, for players to interact with each other in a more meaningful and competitive way than is possible at the moment. In my view, it is games that do this (like Field of Glory, for example) that can keep people devoted and loyal and playing long term.

Just imagine, Peter, still developing this game, still have a large and devoted following, in ten years time. I don't believe that will be possible with no multiplayer option, even if people are very enthusiastic now, less than a month after release.

Just trying to help.


Best Wishes

Mike



TomBombadil711 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 6:35:15 PM)

I agree to what MikeMarchant_ssl said. Although I am really enjoying fighting the AI at the moment, especially with all the mods and new scenarios already released, I would love to play a human opponent in the future. I made two posts at The Blitz and The Few Good Men to draw the attention to idjester's TOTH live stream and after a closer look many complained about the absence of multiplayer. I am sure many more gamers would purchase the game with a MP feature.



rickier65 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 6:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

For what it's worth, my view on this is that multiplayer has to be the way to go if you want the game to survive long term.
....
Mike


I have to agree with this.

Unless you can find a way to identify an definable and achievable goal with AI improvement, you may find improving the AI is a never-ending task.

I would suggest trying to scope out a definable AI improvement goal, and work on that. But also implement some form of MP.

Just my 2-cents worth ( or 2 loonies worth ).

thanks
Rick



rico21 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 6:43:38 PM)

Hello everyone,
I bought this game to play alone, so I want a good AI and good editor scenarios.
Both are good but room for improvement of course and I hope that Peter will improve.
But I also decided to buy the game with the risk that it never changes.
It is a choice, I assume.



Ratzki -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 6:52:58 PM)

I think that games survive when they are able to challege the player(s) and constantly provide something new. Does the AI need work?... sure, we addressed some points during playtesting, but to devote huge amounts of time to developing a better AI and not release new ideas/rules/units would just as certain cause this game to stall out. I think that a balanced AI improvement/new materials approach would keep everyone happy and ensure that the game keeps on selling well and being played. I feel the same about multiplayer,... do we need it? It would appeal to more players if it was there, but that alone would not ensure the continued success of this game.
We have a great game here and possibly something that has real staying power. I think that we as users can help out by finding solutions within the game's limits to accomplish what we want. New units; give us the ability to create them or new terrain, maybe something similar that we can do. Maybe a Ai solution might be a combination of scripting and improved AI. Baby steps are the way to go, keep on making small improvements but keep them comming often will keep us all interested for a long time.
Thanks for creating something that as you can see, Peter, we all appreciate and want to succeed!



rico21 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 7:06:10 PM)

+1[:)]



Gerry4321 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 7:08:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

For what it's worth, my view on this is that multiplayer has to be the way to go if you want the game to survive long term.

An excellent AI is undoubtedly a good thing and something to be aspired to, but I don't think this will keep a sufficient number of players interested in the long term, even with the excellent work that people are putting in to develop new mods and new scenarios.

In my experience, playing computer games since the late 70s, the games which survive for many years are those which provide players with a chance to compete with each other, and that competition isn't going to be practical without some kind of multiplayer system built into the game itself.

If you are really serious about this being a long term project, Peter, and I believe you are, then I fear that the number of people who will be playing this game in 5 years will dwindle down to next to nothing with just an AI to play against. Multiplayer allows competitions to be set up, leagues and tournaments for people to take part in, for players to interact with each other in a more meaningful and competitive way than is possible at the moment. In my view, it is games that do this (like Field of Glory, for example) that can keep people devoted and loyal and playing long term.

Just imagine, Peter, still developing this game, still have a large and devoted following, in ten years time. I don't believe that will be possible with no multiplayer option, even if people are very enthusiastic now, less than a month after release.

Just trying to help.


Best Wishes

Mike


Great post.



Jafele -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 8:31:13 PM)

Iīm not against MP, however ToTH was designed for SP as far as I know. You guys can find loads of excellent games for MP. Do you know many good ones for SP?

As Peter stated the priority is SP, if someday we could have MP then much better, of course. It will take a long time to develop the AI, thatīs true, but this is the price to pay for quality.



dox44 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 8:51:00 PM)

for what its worth. I agree.



Paullus -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 9:48:39 PM)

Guys, did you check out Idjesters thread on how to play TotH with Multiplayer? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4042900




MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 10:03:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ratzki

I think that games survive when they are able to challege the player(s) and constantly provide something new. Does the AI need work?... sure, we addressed some points during playtesting, but to devote huge amounts of time to developing a better AI and not release new ideas/rules/units would just as certain cause this game to stall out. I think that a balanced AI improvement/new materials approach would keep everyone happy and ensure that the game keeps on selling well and being played. I feel the same about multiplayer,... do we need it? It would appeal to more players if it was there, but that alone would not ensure the continued success of this game.
We have a great game here and possibly something that has real staying power. I think that we as users can help out by finding solutions within the game's limits to accomplish what we want. New units; give us the ability to create them or new terrain, maybe something similar that we can do. Maybe a Ai solution might be a combination of scripting and improved AI. Baby steps are the way to go, keep on making small improvements but keep them comming often will keep us all interested for a long time.
Thanks for creating something that as you can see, Peter, we all appreciate and want to succeed!


I'm not suggesting that the only improvement or new addition to the game should be the ability to play multi-player. Of course we also want as many other additions and new features as well.

It's only my view, but I think the game will appeal to a lot more players if it had a multi-player capability, and that it will keep people engaged for a lot longer.


Best Wishes

Mike



MikeMarchant_ssl -> RE: Most important improvements (3/15/2016 10:19:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jafele

Iīm not against MP, however ToTH was designed for SP as far as I know. You guys can find loads of excellent games for MP. Do you know many good ones for SP?

As Peter stated the priority is SP, if someday we could have MP then much better, of course. It will take a long time to develop the AI, thatīs true, but this is the price to pay for quality.


I don't want this to be seen as an 'us and them' situation. I am perfectly happy for the game's AI to be improved and I am perfectly happy for people to want to play the game only as a single player game. That's great. It's also important for new players, who might want to play multiplayer, but need to build up their confidence with the game first.

I also don't think it's important what the game was designed for in the first place, because what's more important is where the game is going to go from here. My view, and it is only my view, is that the long term future of this game will not be people playing it single player, it will be people playing it multiplayer. This isn't just a philosophical view, you can test the theory empirically. Look at the games which have survived for a long time and those which haven't. Now look at which games can be played multiplayer and which can't. Notice the enormous overlap between those that can be played multiplayer and those which survive for a long period of time. Draw your own conclusions.

In an ideal world we'd have everything. We'd have a fabulous user interface, an amazing AI, multiplayer capability, and all those new features that we all want, from walls and hedges to multilevel buildings to Nazi Nuns on Wheels (was that the name of the game? Does anyone remember that game?), but the dilemma for Peter is that he only has so much time available, and time spent doing one thing is time not spent doing another. So Peter has to choose (an unenviable task, and not one I would want) where he is going to spend his time. I am only trying to help that decision making in order to give this game the longevity it deserves.


Best Wishes

Mike



dynaman216 -> RE: Most important improvements (3/16/2016 12:12:48 AM)

The thing with improving the AI is that it will never end, adding MP is do it once and it is done.



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